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Re:Westinghouse sees a tech disrupter in its eVinci microrea... by amluto on Wednesday November 23, 2022 @09:29PM (#33727231)
If the price is right and medium size communities could get their acts together, something like this could potentially disrupt the entire grid model. In California, regardless of what wholesale electricity costs, the retail cost is something like $200/MWh more than could be considered reasonable. Put another way, the utility (PG&E) is charging an immense premium. Normally, displacing PG&E would be impractical:

a. The actual transmission system is a phenomenally large capital investment developed over many decades. You can’t just VC up a new electric grid in a developed area. And the incumbent mostly owns it.

b. Regulation, good and bad.

It’s possible to sell power to the utility for a reasonable price per MWh. But one can’t easily sell to the utility’s customers.

But this reactor is small! 5 MW could serve maybe 1000 expensive homes in an expensive area without an enormous transmission system. Anyone trying to disrupt the incumbent utility with something like this has $200/MWh of inefficiency to exploit. $24k per day of operation will offset a decent amount of capital cost of regulatory effort to get the electricity to customers.

Put another way, a wealthy community could buy a few of these, figure out local distribution, and ditch the incumbent utility. This could be fantastic.

Re:Westinghouse sees a tech disrupter in its eVinci microrea... by psadri on Wednesday November 23, 2022 @10:21PM (#33727481)
I like the idea but not sure if wealthy homeowners would want to a nuclear reactor in the vicinity of their homes. It would have to be proven out over a couple of decades of incident-free operation before it becomes acceptable.
Re:Westinghouse sees a tech disrupter in its eVinci microrea... by zbrozek on Wednesday November 23, 2022 @10:40PM (#33727578)
Los Altos Hills resident here. Sign me up for one in my yard. There's an empty lower acre begging to do something useful.
Re:Westinghouse sees a tech disrupter in its eVinci microrea... by kuschku on Thursday November 24, 2022 @04:42AM (#33729416)
> There's an empty lower acre begging to do something useful.

How about building housing there? As long as house prices are as high as they are today, that should be the main priority.

Re:Westinghouse sees a tech disrupter in its eVinci microrea... by zbrozek on Thursday November 24, 2022 @09:32AM (#33731660)
Local zoning regulations don't allow it. But backup power systems? No problem.
Re:Westinghouse sees a tech disrupter in its eVinci microrea... by cool_dude85 on Wednesday November 23, 2022 @10:44PM (#33727589)
What you're looking for is just a very small utility company. At 5MW of load you'll be needing distribution, substations, maintenance for all the above, planning, etc. The overhead you'd need at such a small scale of sales would probably surprise you.
Re:Westinghouse sees a tech disrupter in its eVinci microrea... by amluto on Thursday November 24, 2022 @01:43PM (#33734832)
And yet most of the world, and even most of the US, does this, including generation, for some $200/MWH less than PG&E. I’m not saying it’s cheap. I’m saying that the amount of money on the table is very large.

(Distribution cost really ought to scale roughly linearly in the length of the system. I don’t know if it does in practice. As a data point, Palo Alto manages to run their entire system for considerably less money than PG&E, and Palo Alto is not an inexpensive place to do anything.)

Re:Westinghouse sees a tech disrupter in its eVinci microrea... by nicwilson on Wednesday November 23, 2022 @10:58PM (#33727656)
a. Yes, but you can easily put up solar+batteries such that the cost of retail energy to the consumer is entirely transmission line rental, at which point disruption is worth whatever the cost of line rental is minus the capital cost of grid construction.

> It’s possible to sell power to the utility for a reasonable price per MWh. But one can’t easily sell to the utility’s customers.

You might not be able to sell energy directly to them, but you can sell/lease energy generation to them which is essentially the same thing. You won't be able to charge the line rental that makes up the majority of the retail cost post installation of solar, but you can start with some fraction of the difference between they save with the solar system, which is probably at a better price point than wholesale cost of electricity.

Re:Westinghouse sees a tech disrupter in its eVinci microrea... by nine_k on Wednesday November 23, 2022 @11:32PM (#33727823)
Good thing everybody lives in Arizona and Sahara, and nobody lives in Sweden, Canada, or even in Seattle! /s

Sadly, sun is not universally abundant.

Re:Westinghouse sees a tech disrupter in its eVinci microrea... by Gwypaas on Thursday November 24, 2022 @02:11AM (#33728549)
But HVDC lines are. The longest one in operation today is ~2200 km.
Re:Westinghouse sees a tech disrupter in its eVinci microrea... by nine_k on Thursday November 24, 2022 @02:47AM (#33728758)
I wonder how their upkeep and bulging expense (especially across difficult terrain) compares to that of the small nuclear power plant described here. We could determine the distance when the HVDC line still makes more sense.
Re:Westinghouse sees a tech disrupter in its eVinci microrea... by Gwypaas on Thursday November 24, 2022 @02:59AM (#33728826)
For true "wilderness" your total addressable market is like a million people. Sweden and Norway have abundant hydro power so they actually export power from north to south. So reduce that to tens of thousands.

For southern scandinavia it is already connected through HVDC to Central Europe and more are being built.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Circumpolar_peoples

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arctic_Circle

Re:Westinghouse sees a tech disrupter in its eVinci microrea... by pjc50 on Thursday November 24, 2022 @07:46AM (#33730694)
Nobody knows what this reactor is going to cost yet, the first one has not been completed ..
Re:Westinghouse sees a tech disrupter in its eVinci microrea... by nicwilson on Thursday November 24, 2022 @04:15AM (#33729248)
True, but consider that most of southern Asia, Oceania, Africa and central America the sun is abundant. That covers a lot of people.
Re:Westinghouse sees a tech disrupter in its eVinci microrea... by cplusplusfellow on Thursday November 24, 2022 @10:43AM (#33732591)
Now we just need a bunch of these reactors to power the desalination plants to support all the folks living in the desert.
Re:Westinghouse sees a tech disrupter in its eVinci microrea... by jmopp on Thursday November 24, 2022 @07:58AM (#33730806)
The Netherlands is about as sunny as Seattle, and it's possible to break even after a few years with a decent-sized solar array on your roof.
Re:Westinghouse sees a tech disrupter in its eVinci microrea... by stjohnswarts on Thursday November 24, 2022 @09:18AM (#33731488)
Jeesh, how expensive is power there? It would take me almost 15 years to get my money back on a solar/battery combo that is big enough to generally supply my electricity needs if I was at 100%.
Re:Westinghouse sees a tech disrupter in its eVinci microrea... by jmopp on Thursday November 24, 2022 @12:45PM (#33734068)
Currently paying around €90 for ~250KWh per month. That is about 4 times what I used to pay in South Africa 5 years ago.
Re:Westinghouse sees a tech disrupter in its eVinci microrea... by jphsnsir on Thursday November 24, 2022 @01:28PM (#33734657)
In Belgium we're at €0,50/kwh We're ordering 36 panels and 10kw battery tomorrow.

The only sad thing is that we can't utlize the battery when we lose netpower. Huawei has an addition, but it only gives an outlet on the battery. I wanted inline, like my ups.

Re:Westinghouse sees a tech disrupter in its eVinci microrea... by hcknwscommenter on Friday November 25, 2022 @08:56AM (#33742388)
Your payback would be a lot faster without a battery I think. At least that is the case where I live (US/East).
Re:Westinghouse sees a tech disrupter in its eVinci microrea... by onlyrealcuzzo on Wednesday November 23, 2022 @11:39PM (#33727861)
Could these be viable for shipping containers??

IIUC, 18,000 TEU ships have engines that generate ~60 mW - and use about 66,000 gallons of diesel per day.

That's ~$90M in fuel per year, which could be replaced by ~12 of there reactors.

That's $7.5M per year. If these can be purchased for less than $20M - with an 8-year life-span and $2M for fuel and operation per year - then maybe it could work??

Re:Westinghouse sees a tech disrupter in its eVinci microrea... by bboygravity on Thursday November 24, 2022 @01:17AM (#33728286)
If you do that the ships would go (dangerously ?) fast.

60 MW output from a combustion engine means rougly 3x the mechanical energy output for the same amount of Joules input with an electric engine.

Re:Westinghouse sees a tech disrupter in its eVinci microrea... by ohgodplsno on Thursday November 24, 2022 @01:51AM (#33728449)
On the plus side, container ship drag races would now be a thing.
Re:Westinghouse sees a tech disrupter in its eVinci microrea... by malandrew on Thursday November 24, 2022 @02:45AM (#33728740)
Imagine how far they travel when trying to stop. I guess you would have the power to run the engines in reverse at full power too.
Re:Westinghouse sees a tech disrupter in its eVinci microrea... by porker on Thursday November 24, 2022 @02:54AM (#33728801)
Power isn't the problem; vibration, the stress on the ship's hull, and risk of losing a propellor are the real problems with sustained running in reverse at full power.
Re:Westinghouse sees a tech disrupter in its eVinci microrea... by ohgodplsno on Thursday November 24, 2022 @03:05AM (#33728853)
Stop ? Just drift with all your cargo.
Re:Westinghouse sees a tech disrupter in its eVinci microrea... by Tuna-Fish on Thursday November 24, 2022 @04:32AM (#33729352)
You'd get surprisingly little additional speed. An old rule of thumb is that if you double the power of a large ship, you get 4 additional knots of speed. Current average laden container ship speed is ~15 knots, down from about 20 knots from back before they cared about fuel costs and emissions. So you'd only get speeds up to what they were before.
Re:Westinghouse sees a tech disrupter in its eVinci microrea... by VBprogrammer on Thursday November 24, 2022 @05:27AM (#33729700)
I think the 60MW output is shaft horsepower so it already takes into account the low efficiency of converting fuel oil to movement (so in reality it's burning about 150MW of fuel oil).
Re:Westinghouse sees a tech disrupter in its eVinci microrea... by rurounijones on Thursday November 24, 2022 @03:09AM (#33728876)
It would require changes in regulations around the world. Many ports do not allow nuclear powered vessels to dock. Those regs were written with traditional nuclear power plants in mind but I think there would still have to be a lot of work to get acceptance.
Re:Westinghouse sees a tech disrupter in its eVinci microrea... by jononomo on Thursday November 24, 2022 @08:59AM (#33731331)
Would these reactors take up less physical space than the fuel system they would displace?
Re:Westinghouse sees a tech disrupter in its eVinci microrea... by onlyrealcuzzo on Thursday November 24, 2022 @03:53PM (#33736111)
Almost certainly. See picture [1]. According to Wikipedia, they're ~87 ft x ~87 ft x ~44 ft = 333k cuft [2]

These reactors are supposed to be a max of 4 containers in size.

So ~12 of them would be ~48 containers = 4x6x2 = ~80 ft x ~60 ft x ~30 ft = 144k cuft.

Though, I doubt you'd want to stack them like that, and I imagine you'd need more than just the reactors to replace the engine.

But more importantly - container ships need space and weight for ~66k gallons of diesel per day - about ~3M gallons total. That's an additional ~401k cuft for diesel, and ~13,500 tons... Each TEU is 22 tons - so you could probably carry an additional 600 TEU (or ~3.5% more).

[1] https://www.amusingplanet.com/2013/03/the-largest-and-most-p...

[2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/W%C3%A4rtsil%C3%A4-Sulzer_RTA9...

Re:Westinghouse sees a tech disrupter in its eVinci microrea... by Someone on Thursday November 24, 2022 @04:09AM (#33729199)
> In California, regardless of what wholesale electricity costs, the retail cost is something like $200/MWh more than could be considered reasonable.

$200/MWh is $2/kWh. California electricity prices are around $0,27/kWh (https://www.energysage.com/local-data/electricity-cost/ca/). I guess you mean $200/GWh?

Also, why do you find PG&Ek’s pricing unreasonable, given that it required a “phenomenally large capital investment” (and, I expect, quite a bit of ongoing maintenance) to be able to provide customers with electricity?

Re:Westinghouse sees a tech disrupter in its eVinci microrea... by qilo on Thursday November 24, 2022 @04:28AM (#33729331)
> $200/MWh is $2/kWh.

$200/MWh is $0.20/kWh.

Re:Westinghouse sees a tech disrupter in its eVinci microrea... by Someone on Thursday November 24, 2022 @04:40AM (#33729410)
Oops. Thanks
Re:Westinghouse sees a tech disrupter in its eVinci microrea... by zbrozek on Thursday November 24, 2022 @09:38AM (#33731730)
PG&E pricing is higher than that, ranging from 37 to 49 cents per kWh on their default residential plan. That's more than three times the national average. It's unclear why the state expects folks to electrify when electricity is outrageously expensive.

https://www.pge.com/tariffs/assets/pdf/tariffbook/ELEC_SCHED...

Re:Westinghouse sees a tech disrupter in its eVinci microrea... by quickthrower2 on Thursday November 24, 2022 @05:45AM (#33729817)
There is the small issue of transmission and maintaining that. But surely it is better to also use the grid for when you peak over 5MW at dinner time when people turn on their ovens, lights and other appliances and also to be able to sell back to the grid at other times. Unless you have batteries.

But your argument is solid for a factory with constant 24/7 load where a single building might consume all that power.

Re:Westinghouse sees a tech disrupter in its eVinci microrea... by amluto on Thursday November 24, 2022 @02:10PM (#33735124)
The spreads are egregious, though. You can buy from PG&E for several hundred dollars per MWH. You can likely sell to them for a couple dollars per MWH. No, you do not get NEM for your neighborhood nuclear plant.

Or you can overprovision, discard unused output (or try to do something useful — even just heating up a big heat reservoir is useful for district heating if you feel like building out a system to deliver the heat), and still potentially win on overall price.

Large grids are economical when reasonably run. They are not economical when poorly run.

Re:Westinghouse sees a tech disrupter in its eVinci microrea... by quickthrower2 on Thursday November 24, 2022 @02:23PM (#33735233)
That is horrendous. Battery it is!

Residential solar plans in Sydney would buy power back for about 5c US / kwh so $50 / mwh

Although I think their hand might be forced to encourage solar. They used to pay crazy high amounts.

Re:Westinghouse sees a tech disrupter in its eVinci microrea... by voldacar on Thursday November 24, 2022 @06:09AM (#33729985)
expensive houses require a lot more than 5 kw
Re:Westinghouse sees a tech disrupter in its eVinci microrea... by m463 on Thursday November 24, 2022 @02:29PM (#33735289)
I recall some California communities without PG&E have somewhat reasonable electric costs. Santa Clara has silicon valley power with rates of .11-.13/kwh which are significantly lower than PG&E at .28-.51/kwh

PG&E is expensive.

Re:Westinghouse sees a tech disrupter in its eVinci microrea... by brnt on Thursday November 24, 2022 @08:54PM (#33738298)
[Cries in European]