News for hackers. Stuff that matters.
Re:Chief scientist of major corporation can’t handle critici... by samvher on Wednesday November 23, 2022 @11:55AM (#33721660)
Maybe I'm naive - but I don't get it.

Closing your eyes doesn't make the room empty. And in the same way not programming preconceptions into the neural net doesn't make the preconceptions go away?

I realize explaining a joke or something like this takes away some of the charm (sorry), but would love to get the point :)

Re:Chief scientist of major corporation can’t handle critici... by PuppyTailWags on Wednesday November 23, 2022 @12:03PM (#33721708)
Randomly wiring a neural net doesn't remove preconceptions, it just makes it that you don't know them. Similarly, closing your eyes doesn't make a room empty, it just makes it that you can't see what's there. Minsky is pointing out that Sussman's fundamental assumptions on desiring to remove preconceptions is logically flawed.
Re:Chief scientist of major corporation can’t handle critici... by samvher on Wednesday November 23, 2022 @12:39PM (#33722180)
Gotcha - I read it as Sussman didn't want to program his preconceptions into the network (for which randomness seemed suitable, which is why I was confused). Your explanation makes more sense.
Re:Chief scientist of major corporation can’t handle critici... by michaelt on Wednesday November 23, 2022 @12:14PM (#33721835)
There's an old series of - stories? jokes? called 'unix koans' [1] which always end with a master answering a question in a very unclear but profound-sounding way, then the line 'Upon hearing this, [someone] was enlightened.'

I never found them laugh-out-loud funny myself.

This is probably a reference to those.

[1] http://www.catb.org/~esr/writings/unix-koans/

Re:Chief scientist of major corporation can’t handle critici... by aidenn0 on Wednesday November 23, 2022 @12:43PM (#33722232)
A Koan (公案) is a concept from Zen Buddhism. Zen made its way into pop-culture (or at least the popular counter-culture movement) in the US in the 1960s via several writers of the Beat Generation. Project MAC at MIT was founded in the early 60s (Gerald Sussman started there in '64 I think)? So a number of faux Koans were in circulation in the AI crowd by about 1970.
Re:Chief scientist of major corporation can’t handle critici... by whatshisface on Wednesday November 23, 2022 @12:26PM (#33722023)
Unfortunately because it's delivered as a koan we'll never know whether he's talking about the fact that the random weights determine the nearest local minimum or the hyperparameters.
Re:Chief scientist of major corporation can’t handle critici... by mistrial9 on Wednesday November 23, 2022 @01:01PM (#33722451)
also unfortunately, a "real koan" often relies on conflating expectations+conditioning versus direct experience, where direct experience is shown to invoke an "impossible" result; teaching that the conditioned, subjective mind does not see fundamental aspects of reality, though it thinks it has the answers.

These technical mimics of that structure echo a time when a lot of people, relatively, were experimenting with disregarding personal subjectivity in favor of direct experience and deeper Truth. In the modern tech versions, that is rarely if ever part of the story?

Re:Chief scientist of major corporation can’t handle critici... by usefulcat on Wednesday November 23, 2022 @12:03PM (#33721706)
I think you’ve exactly described the point.
Re:Chief scientist of major corporation can’t handle critici... by just_testing on Friday November 25, 2022 @10:28AM (#33743215)
I interpret that as Minsky being... an unpleasurable person, to say the least.