News for hackers. Stuff that matters.
Re:Department of Defense Releases Zero Trust Strategy and Ro... by asynchronous on Tuesday November 22, 2022 @08:39PM (#33714013)
“The Department’s most consequential strategic competitor and the pacing challenge for the Department, the People’s Republic of China,3 as well as other state-sponsored adversaries and individual malicious actors often breach the Department’s defensive perimeter and roam freely within our information systems.”

This statement from the actual PDF really is telling for how far the DoD has dropped the ball on protection- maybe spend less time fleshing out offensive capabilities and more time on defense of your citizens?

Re:Department of Defense Releases Zero Trust Strategy and Ro... by edgyquant on Tuesday November 22, 2022 @09:15PM (#33714297)
>maybe spend less time fleshing out offensive capabilities and more time on defense of your citizens

With our budget the two are not mutually exclusive

Re:Department of Defense Releases Zero Trust Strategy and Ro... by prvit on Tuesday November 22, 2022 @10:21PM (#33714747)
And they’re often the same. Take cyber “offensive” capabilities for example. Why do those exist? To provide intelligence for defense.
Re:Department of Defense Releases Zero Trust Strategy and Ro... by Godel_unicode on Wednesday November 23, 2022 @09:25PM (#33727202)
Not really? Cyber threat intelligence is an incredibly overblown industry, remarkably similar to the xkcd about crypto. Offensive capabilities are for Natanz.

Everyone seems to think they need super ninja threat intel to protect them from elite nation state hackers, meanwhile they’re being randomware’d with metasploit modules from 8 months ago.

Run A/V and patch, that’ll be $1.7million, thanks.

Re:Department of Defense Releases Zero Trust Strategy and Ro... by prvit on Thursday November 24, 2022 @10:08PM (#33738762)
Nothing in my comment has anything to do with “cyber threat intelligence”. Did you reply to the wrong comment?
Re:Department of Defense Releases Zero Trust Strategy and Ro... by Godel_unicode on Thursday November 24, 2022 @10:12PM (#33738777)
> To provide intelligence for defense.

Did you forget what you wrote?

Re:Department of Defense Releases Zero Trust Strategy and Ro... by prvit on Friday November 25, 2022 @01:40PM (#33745435)
I didn’t forget what I wrote, I just exist in the real world where missiles are a bigger threat than hackers.
Re:Department of Defense Releases Zero Trust Strategy and Ro... by Thorrez on Tuesday November 22, 2022 @09:43PM (#33714507)
Re:Department of Defense Releases Zero Trust Strategy and Ro... by prvit on Tuesday November 22, 2022 @10:19PM (#33714742)
> maybe spend less time fleshing out offensive capabilities and more time on defense of your citizens?

What do you mean? The US should invest in cyber defenses instead of fighter jets?

Re:Department of Defense Releases Zero Trust Strategy and Ro... by Enginerrrd on Tuesday November 22, 2022 @10:41PM (#33714876)
No it's just that the NSA used to work to make American companies more secure. Now they instead they find zero-days to then secretly exploit for as long as possible.

It's gotten so bad, that their recommendations for crypto are regarded with a significant degree of skepticism because of past history of deliberately undermining crypto systems which is a Terrible state of things.

Re:Department of Defense Releases Zero Trust Strategy and Ro... by lazide on Tuesday November 22, 2022 @11:05PM (#33715036)
They do both, but right now the technology makes real defense (when you have real users) pretty much impossible. And not because of the NSA.
Re:Department of Defense Releases Zero Trust Strategy and Ro... by _jal on Wednesday November 23, 2022 @01:33AM (#33715925)
They do both, but it has been the case for a while that the NSA prioritizes offense. You can agree with that stance or not, but it is there, criticism on this point goes back at least a decade.

I agree that the security environment is awful, but that doesn't excuse NSA making it worse.

Re:Department of Defense Releases Zero Trust Strategy and Ro... by prvit on Wednesday November 23, 2022 @05:58AM (#33717654)
Of course NSA prioritises offense when it provides a vastly greater RoI.
Re:Department of Defense Releases Zero Trust Strategy and Ro... by lazide on Wednesday November 23, 2022 @10:36AM (#33720472)
Also, outside of SCIF environments (which do get prioritized), there isn’t a whole lot that is feasible for DOD or other gov’t agencies to do while still using civilian technology or working habits, which they don’t really have an option on right now.

The whole industry and economy needs to be upleveled software wise in a lot of ways for meaningfully better security to be economically possible.

Typically that requires a serious crisis and/or war. Hopefully not the case here.

Re:Department of Defense Releases Zero Trust Strategy and Ro... by _jal on Wednesday November 23, 2022 @12:08PM (#33721761)
> provides a vastly greater RoI

Of course it does. Thinking about it in terms of ROI doesn't consider externalities. When the OPM gets hacked, nobody at the NSA worries about their budget.

Reason #7893 "run government like a business" is a self-describing category error.

Re:Department of Defense Releases Zero Trust Strategy and Ro... by lazide on Wednesday November 23, 2022 @01:12PM (#33722581)
everyone uses ROI calculations somewhere (just not necessarily using cash as the return metric) or they are flying blind.

The underlying issue is that large organizations have low trust (some worse than others!), and therefore large organizations tend to coarse numeric metrics, and game those metrics to look better, which makes even more low trust (and hence backstabbing, empire building, etc.) between divisions.

As a reaction, leadership also tends to err towards coarse, harder to game metrics (like ‘reduce breaches by xx%’ rather than relying on judgement and trust like ‘ensure we don’t have an unreasonable number of breaches, and work to reduce them in the ecosystem’.

Which of course provides strong incentives for chasing the number by throwing all the babies out with the bathwater, and often making the real problem worse.

It’s a size of the organization problem. Changing metrics/mission will shuffle up the specific babies being thrown out, and what is considered the bath water, but the underlying problem remains.

Solid, consistent leadership makes the problem better. That tends to be expensive and not want to deal with the political BS common in Gov’t, at least in the US.

Re:Department of Defense Releases Zero Trust Strategy and Ro... by _jal on Wednesday November 23, 2022 @06:23PM (#33725832)
Former employee, or contractor?
Re:Department of Defense Releases Zero Trust Strategy and Ro... by lazide on Wednesday November 23, 2022 @07:37PM (#33726426)
Thankfully No, but I know a few.

If you think tech workers have office BS to complain about, gov’t workers are at least 10x higher on the scale.

Re:Department of Defense Releases Zero Trust Strategy and Ro... by Godel_unicode on Wednesday November 23, 2022 @09:42PM (#33727296)
The government does a ton of pure research, including in computer science and security, which is explicitly not about ROI but rather about advancing our understanding of basic science.
Re:Department of Defense Releases Zero Trust Strategy and Ro... by lazide on Wednesday November 23, 2022 @09:49PM (#33727328)
Which always has a grant proposal laying out hoped for results in areas being investigated, at least most of the time correct?

Someone looks at it and goes ‘yeah, that might pay off’ or round files it somewhere.

Researchers who never end up finding anything notable also don’t tend to have long careers, correct?

Re:Department of Defense Releases Zero Trust Strategy and Ro... by Godel_unicode on Wednesday November 23, 2022 @10:09PM (#33727419)
None of that is what I’m talking about, no. I know many researchers who are quite proud of the fact that their research is never going to make money but is super interesting from a scientific perspective.

The crazy amount of skepticism this always draws is simultaneously very funny and very saddening.

Re:Department of Defense Releases Zero Trust Strategy and Ro... by lazide on Thursday November 24, 2022 @12:32PM (#33733928)
That a percentage of total funds is put into stuff like that isn't surprising, to avoid too much hyperfocus on what we know.

What percentage of the overall budget do you think it is?

Re:Department of Defense Releases Zero Trust Strategy and Ro... by prvit on Wednesday November 23, 2022 @05:57AM (#33717644)
It seems to be that $100B spent by NSA on offensive operations will reap far greater security benefits than spending $100B “to make American companies more (cyber)secure”.

Knowing what your adversaries are up to is invaluable.

Re:Department of Defense Releases Zero Trust Strategy and Ro... by ynbkc on Wednesday November 23, 2022 @09:57PM (#33727372)
Here’s one concern highlighting the value of broad defenses. A targeted software-based attack may trigger supply chain disruptions with significant (even if only short-term) impacts. If combined / coordinated, multi-billion dollar disruption is within reach.
Re:Department of Defense Releases Zero Trust Strategy and Ro... by ynbkc on Wednesday November 23, 2022 @09:16AM (#33719359)
Can you please share a source? This isn’t laziness. I know I can search — and I will —- but I cannot know what sources _you_ are intending, which provides context.
Re:Department of Defense Releases Zero Trust Strategy and Ro... by Enginerrrd on Wednesday November 23, 2022 @01:12PM (#33722590)
I did have some things in mind but, to save me a bit of time, are there any particular claims you're looking to source?
Re:Department of Defense Releases Zero Trust Strategy and Ro... by ynbkc on Wednesday November 23, 2022 @03:04PM (#33723852)
Sure, thanks

> No it's just that the NSA used to work to make American companies more secure

1. I'm interested in that history; e.g. how it came about and how it worked.

2. Evidence that this is no longer (or less of) a goal: policy, internal priorities, spending? Congressional testimony, legislation, or guidance? Leaks?

Re:Department of Defense Releases Zero Trust Strategy and Ro... by bob1029 on Wednesday November 23, 2022 @09:32AM (#33719555)
> their recommendations for crypto are regarded with a significant degree of skepticism

Indeed. Once you start talking about magical constants and extremely convoluted math concepts... that's zero trust in my book.

Integer factorization is a grade school concept in most developed nations. The edge cases are far more obvious than with something like ECC, which has entire classes of no-good constants that would require a PhD in math to fully grok.

Re:Department of Defense Releases Zero Trust Strategy and Ro... by Godel_unicode on Wednesday November 23, 2022 @09:33PM (#33727258)
Prime factorization is one of the great unsolved problems in mathematics and if you can solve it there is a million dollar prize with your name on it. There are all kinds of issues with implementing crypto safely on top of it (google “Fermat factorization”), some related to bad constants. Being well known doesn’t make the math easy.
Re:Department of Defense Releases Zero Trust Strategy and Ro... by CKMo on Tuesday November 22, 2022 @10:34PM (#33714825)
I was reading it and going "Are...are you allowed to publicly admit this?"

It's a wild time, I'm telling you

Re:Department of Defense Releases Zero Trust Strategy and Ro... by imwillofficial on Wednesday November 23, 2022 @02:22AM (#33716198)
As an insider, I’ll say it’s a selective reading of the facts on the verge of hyperbole.
Re:Department of Defense Releases Zero Trust Strategy and Ro... by ynbkc on Wednesday November 23, 2022 @09:12AM (#33719295)
If this is true, why now?
Re:Department of Defense Releases Zero Trust Strategy and Ro... by recuter on Wednesday November 23, 2022 @09:28AM (#33719501)
Budget.
Re:Department of Defense Releases Zero Trust Strategy and Ro... by asynchronous on Wednesday November 23, 2022 @11:48AM (#33721555)
I could see that being the case, drumming up the situation so they get more funding to fix the problem. At least I hope that is the case, over the alternative.
Re:Department of Defense Releases Zero Trust Strategy and Ro... by Godel_unicode on Wednesday November 23, 2022 @09:22PM (#33727182)
That is absolutely not the case.
Re:Department of Defense Releases Zero Trust Strategy and Ro... by imwillofficial on Wednesday November 23, 2022 @11:33PM (#33727828)
It is absolutely the case. I worked network defense for Network Warfare Command.

There is literally nobody on earth more qualified than me than me to make the statement I did.

Re:Department of Defense Releases Zero Trust Strategy and Ro... by Godel_unicode on Thursday November 24, 2022 @12:20AM (#33728019)
You’re aware that the DoD is more than just the navy, yes? Also, the defender’s having missed a bunch of intrusions is literally exactly what this report is saying. Sorry to be the one to tell you.
Re:Department of Defense Releases Zero Trust Strategy and Ro... by Godel_unicode on Wednesday November 23, 2022 @09:21PM (#33727171)
What’s the downside? It’s not like they have a customer base whose trust they need to keep.
Re:Department of Defense Releases Zero Trust Strategy and Ro... by nonameiguess on Wednesday November 23, 2022 @06:17AM (#33717792)
They are. The entire purpose of the zero trust push is that it is nearly impossible to completely prevent perimeter breaches, so instead design in such a way that an actor inside your perimeter is not automatically trusted.
Re:Department of Defense Releases Zero Trust Strategy and Ro... by PLG88 on Wednesday November 23, 2022 @06:55AM (#33718057)
You can almost entirely prevent perimeter breaches (from untrusted attacks) by implementing authenticate-before-connect with strong identity incl. closing all inbound ports at source and destination.