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Re:Acquisition of Chess Knowledge in AlphaZero by macspoofing on Sunday November 20, 2022 @02:33PM (#33684389)
>Would it work? Probably not

"Probably not" indeed. Human brains need to be stimulated in order for them to build their neural net. Blindly following instruction is not stimulating.

>but our current approach (studying openings, etc.) is obviously not working

That's part of the current approach, not the full approach. Kids that show promise in Chess, already train with computers today (in addition to personalized coaching, and strategy study). I have no doubt that the current generation of chess players is best of all time, and that the next generation will be even better. Even with that, I don't think any human will be able to train enough to beat even Stockfish, much less Alpha Zero - just as no human will ever train enough to beat computers at arithmetic.

Re:Acquisition of Chess Knowledge in AlphaZero by pvitz on Sunday November 20, 2022 @03:50PM (#33685144)
Stockfish is stronger than AlphaZero.
Re:Acquisition of Chess Knowledge in AlphaZero by firsttimebigboy on Sunday November 20, 2022 @06:07PM (#33686515)
What makes you say that? Everything I've seen says AlphaZero beat SF8 easily: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/AlphaZero#Chess_2
Re:Acquisition of Chess Knowledge in AlphaZero by goatlover on Sunday November 20, 2022 @06:14PM (#33686564)
Because that was several years ago. SF has improved since then.
Re:Acquisition of Chess Knowledge in AlphaZero by cfreksen on Sunday November 20, 2022 @07:23PM (#33687142)
To elaborate, in the Top Chess Engine Championship (which is also used as a benchmark in the AlphaZero vs Stockfish comparison) Stockfish has won all seasons since May 2020[1,2]. A common runner up for those seasons is LCZero[3], which is an engine that is derived from/a reimplementation of AlphaZero. Stockfish is also ahead of LCZero in Fischer random chess (as hosted at TCEC) winning 4 out of the 5 FRC tournaments.

As for how close Stockfish 8 is to a current version of Stockfish, Stockfish 15 has ~400 more ELO than Stockfish 8 as measured in their own self-tests[4].

However, when making these comparisons between AlphaZero and Stockfish it might be tempting to frame it as machine-learning-engine vs classical-engine, which is not true. Stockfish incorporates a neural network when evaluating chess positions[5].

[1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Top_Chess_Engine_Championship#...

[2]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stockfish_(chess)#Top_Chess_En...

[3]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Leela_Chess_Zero

[4]: https://github.com/glinscott/fishtest/wiki/Regression-Tests#...

[5]: https://stockfishchess.org/blog/2020/introducing-nnue-evalua...

Re:Acquisition of Chess Knowledge in AlphaZero by pvitz on Monday November 21, 2022 @04:04AM (#33690432)
Great summary! Also, at [1], one can hear Deepmind hinting at that state-of-the-art engines (Stockfish, Leela Chess Zero) will beat Alphazero.

[1] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N2MncpRMnFA&feature=youtu.be...

Re:Acquisition of Chess Knowledge in AlphaZero by dankwizard on Sunday November 20, 2022 @07:08PM (#33687027)
Stockfish 15 is much stronger than SF8.
Re:Acquisition of Chess Knowledge in AlphaZero by macspoofing on Sunday November 20, 2022 @06:53PM (#33686886)
Not the point.
Re:Acquisition of Chess Knowledge in AlphaZero by Shorel on Monday November 21, 2022 @04:37AM (#33690665)
But that's just the latest Stockfish, after LeelaZero implemented AlphaZero strategy and beat Stockfish, and then Stockfish had to add neural networks to its code to stay competitive.
Re:Acquisition of Chess Knowledge in AlphaZero by osigurdson on Sunday November 20, 2022 @06:28PM (#33686683)
>> just as no human will ever train enough to beat computers at arithmetic.

Think of the amount of complex computation must be happening for an elite gymnast for example. Sure, they aren't solving the equations consciously but at some level computation is happening - or even something as simple as making sense of all of the individual photons arriving at the eye. The subconscious is what I am suggesting we try to exploit. Even then, it seems likely that a "special" brain would be needed - hence why large numbers would be required in order to find it.

Re:Acquisition of Chess Knowledge in AlphaZero by macspoofing on Monday November 21, 2022 @10:01AM (#33693260)
>Think of the amount of complex computation must be happening for an elite gymnast for example.

By that logic, my cat should be trainable to a Chess Grandmaster level because she performs complex computation as she navigates my backyard.

>The subconscious is what I am suggesting we try to exploit.

Is there any evidence that a subconscious is exploitable it that way ... at all. Because learning doesn't work that way - especially for higher-order knowledge like Chess.