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Re:Let Crypto Burn by anonporridge on Sunday November 20, 2022 @01:51PM (#33683930)
As a bitcoin/monero maxi who's watched my dollar denominated net worth cut in half this year and expect it to go lower, I strongly agree.

The wheat is being separated from the chaff, and I am absolutely here for it. I wish more innocent people would have listened to us and not trusted centralized exchanges or yolo'd huge money into shitcoins, but sometimes you have to watch a child touch a hot stove for their long term well-being.

Tick tock, next block.

Re:Let Crypto Burn by thunky on Sunday November 20, 2022 @02:19PM (#33684216)
> As a bitcoin/monero maxi

It's too bad that (bitcoin, mostly) maxis are using the recent crypto embarassment as a way to justify their own vested crypto interests. To say "we're better than them" without really explaining how in a way that doesn't require incredible feats of mental gymnastics.

edit: here's an example:

https://www.cnbc.com/video/2022/11/16/theres-bitcoin-and-the...

Re:Let Crypto Burn by rufusroflpunch on Sunday November 20, 2022 @02:30PM (#33684347)
What incredible feat of mental gymnastics if in this video?
Re:Let Crypto Burn by thunky on Sunday November 20, 2022 @02:56PM (#33684633)
Some quotes about bitcoin from Jack Mallers in the video:

  - "it's an abritrage on the trend" (multiple times)
  - "humanity really found it's stride in inventing bitcoin"
  - "we made and engineered the best version of <money>"
  - "there's bitcoin and there's everything else"
  - "a well engineered freedom fighting tool for our species"
  - "gives everyone in the world real property rights secured by mathematics"
  - "first monetary asset that we've been able to engineer with no natural issuer"
  - "is a guaranteed fixed protected monetary policy and instrument"
  - "accessible to everyone and equitable for everyone. no one has an advantage"
What? I have no idea what he's talking about because he never bothers to explain why bitcoin is pure magic and all other crypto is trash. He's just jumping on CNBC to hype his flavor or crypto for obvious reasons.
Re:Let Crypto Burn by tromp on Sunday November 20, 2022 @03:04PM (#33684713)
> accessible to everyone and equitable for everyone. no one has an advantage

That could have been true if Bitcoin had a never changing block reward. The miners in the first 4 years (including Satoshi himself) had a huge advantage.

Re:Let Crypto Burn by taolegal on Sunday November 20, 2022 @03:14PM (#33684796)
> had a huge advantage

anyone could have decided to buy bitcoin when it was cheap. the advantage of bitcoin is that your enemies have to expend prohibitive amounts of energy to screw anyone over, and that protection is accessible to everyone

Re:Let Crypto Burn by thunky on Sunday November 20, 2022 @03:16PM (#33684807)
gold is accessible to everyone too
Re:Let Crypto Burn by tromp on Sunday November 20, 2022 @03:44PM (#33685070)
> anyone could have decided to buy bitcoin when it was cheap

Wrong; the vast majority of people were unaware of bitcoin, and how its emission worked, in the first 4 years when half of all bitcoin was emitted and it was still relatively cheap.

Re:Let Crypto Burn by taolegal on Monday November 21, 2022 @10:12AM (#33693417)
you're still not explaining how people are unable to get it at any point in its history
Re:Let Crypto Burn by monero-xmr on Sunday November 20, 2022 @01:56PM (#33683980)
I read that institutional investors are “afraid of crypto” and this will be bad in the long run.

Bad in the long run for who? What did these VCs invest in? A huge pile of scam alt coins / alt chains, centralized exchanges, stuff no one wants.

Bitcoin is digital gold. It’s boring and has operated mostly the same since the beginning. We don’t need FTX and I hope the tourists don’t come back.

Re:Let Crypto Burn by anonporridge on Sunday November 20, 2022 @02:03PM (#33684053)
Bitcoin and reusable proof of work is the mind blowing innovation that represents a turning point for human civilization. Mutually assured preservation via softwar.

The rest will at best be iterative technology that may eventually be integrated into the traditional securities and exchange systems governed by the local monopoly on violence, but is generally uninvestable in its current form.

Re:Let Crypto Burn by marcus_holmes on Sunday November 20, 2022 @02:11PM (#33684137)
The whole thing is uninvestable.

None of it (including Bitcoin) generates any value. Nothing is created that benefits the human race. It's speculation all the way down - the only value that a bitcoin has is the likelihood of someone else paying more for it than you paid for it. It's not a turning point for human civilisation; it's a slot machine in a digital casino.

Not that the derivatives of "tradfi" are any better. But underneath all that speculation at least there is actual stocks in actual companies that are actually making real human value.

Re:Let Crypto Burn by osigurdson on Sunday November 20, 2022 @02:33PM (#33684400)
I don't own any crypto but I think this is an overly reductive take and fails to make comparisons to its natural competitors - cash and gold. Cash has zero intrinsic value and while gold's intrinsic value is non-zero it would be worth far less if only industrial uses were considered. It isn't reasonable to compare crypto to stocks or farmland for this reason.

The distinction between cash and crypto boils down to if you have more trust in centralization or de-centralization.

Re:Let Crypto Burn by rahen on Sunday November 20, 2022 @02:19PM (#33684223)
> Nothing is created that benefits the human race.

With Bitcoin, we're talking about nothing less than the separation of money and state, like we obtained the separation of church and state. This is huge.

Re:Let Crypto Burn by tromp on Sunday November 20, 2022 @02:34PM (#33684417)
With Bitcoin, we're talking about a concentration of wealth (on early miners and "hodlers") orders of magnitude worse than with fiat. It benefits mostly a tiny fraction of the human race.
Re:Let Crypto Burn by jamiek88 on Sunday November 20, 2022 @02:27PM (#33684306)
Yes but it’s controlled by like 3 people. They can revert the chain and have done so in the past.

How is that better?

Re:Let Crypto Burn by rahen on Sunday November 20, 2022 @02:29PM (#33684336)
Mining is more decentralized now than it was when Chinese pools had 60% of the hashrate.

We're also rolling the Stratum v2 protocol, which will considerably improve the decentralization.

https://braiins.com/blog/stratum-v2-bitcoin-decentralization

Re:Let Crypto Burn by roland35 on Sunday November 20, 2022 @02:44PM (#33684501)
Let's not forget that the entire point of "proof of work" is to waste electricity and waste electronics in persuit of making pointless calculations until one is randomly correct. What a great system!!
Re:Let Crypto Burn by rahen on Sunday November 20, 2022 @03:17PM (#33684814)
The point of PoW is to make money hard to create, unlike state money (fiat).

You could say gold, silver or basically any store of value use PoW too: they require a considerable amount of time and energy to obtain. If you could just use dirt as money, it would be worthless as anyone could produce some effortlessly. It's the basis of sound money.

Bitcoin currently uses about 85TW/year of energy for its mining. Estimations for the traditional finance system seem to be around 2000TW/year. Factoring the amount of transactions, Bitcoin is about 50 more efficient per transaction (accounting transportation, paper and coin production, datacenters, energy used by banks). Its energy usage is also independent of the amount of transactions, so it becomes more efficient as the number of transactions grow.

Re:Let Crypto Burn by unicornmama on Sunday November 20, 2022 @02:29PM (#33684330)
There's no separation of money and state - unless the state allows it.
Re:Let Crypto Burn by rahen on Sunday November 20, 2022 @03:21PM (#33684842)
Doesn't seem to go so well, does it?
Re:Let Crypto Burn by unicornmama on Sunday November 20, 2022 @03:58PM (#33685212)
Relative to what?
Re:Let Crypto Burn by marcus_holmes on Monday November 21, 2022 @04:43AM (#33690710)
Bitcoin actively took a decision to not be a currency but to be a "store of value".

It cannot function as a currency because it's too slow (you can't wait for ~10 minutes to see if your transaction for included in the block in order to pay for a coffee).

In order to separate State from Money, we need a currency. Until I can buy a coffee with my hypothetical FreeCoin, I need to rely on fiat currency supplied by someone both I and the barista trust (like a government).

This isn't huge, it's shit

Re:Let Crypto Burn by rahen on Monday November 21, 2022 @06:06AM (#33691254)
The Bitcoin blockchain is a layer 1, it acts as a settlement layer, or put simply, a notarization layer, or a store of value layer. It's not intended to be used as a full scale transaction layer as it couldn't scale and would bloat the blockchain.

Large amounts of transactions should be made off-chain through payment channels, with only the final balance between the parties written to the blockchain. This what layers 2, sitting above the blockchain, are about.

Common layers 2 are Lightning and Liquid, the former being the most widely used.

https://www.bitcoin.com/get-started/what-is-lightning-networ...

https://www.investopedia.com/terms/l/lightning-network.asp

It might interest you to note than clightning is written by Rusty Russel, mostly know for its work with the Linux kernel, and also author of iptables.

We're also seing some layer 3 like RGB for smart contracts, but I digress. Suffice to say, Bitcoin is more than its layer 1 and store of value.

Re:Let Crypto Burn by ww520 on Sunday November 20, 2022 @02:38PM (#33684461)
A serious question, how much have your crypto denominated net worth gone up or down this year?

Crypto has been put forth as the hedge against fiats, but in reality it seems to be more as a speculative instrument.

Re:Let Crypto Burn by anonporridge on Sunday November 20, 2022 @03:58PM (#33685216)
Bitcoin, not crypto. Crypto is mostly a scam.

My bitcoin denominated net worth has gone up a lot this year. Most of my other money is in the S&P 500, which has almost tripled in value this year. https://www.pricedinbitcoin21.com/chart/index/GSPC.INDX

Unfortunately, the cost of goods and services denominated in bitcoin has also gone up a lot this year. The money supply is only one side of the equation when it comes to the price of goods and services.

Re:Let Crypto Burn by ww520 on Sunday November 20, 2022 @06:02PM (#33686465)
Interesting. That's quite impressive given the state of crypto/BTC this year.

Are you interpreting the PricedinBitcoin21 index correctly? I don't think the index going up 3X this year really means what you've thought it meant.

Re:Let Crypto Burn by anonporridge on Sunday November 20, 2022 @07:26PM (#33687156)
It means that the index went up 3x denominated in (priced in) bitcoin, rather than priced in dollars. i.e. using bitcoin as the unit of account instead of dollars.

I suspect that 'denominated' doesn't mean what you think it means.

Re:Let Crypto Burn by ww520 on Sunday November 20, 2022 @09:33PM (#33687995)
The PricedinBitcoin21 showing the price of goods and services priced in bitcoins. It's akin to the CPI showing the price of goods and services priced in USD. The PricedinBitcoin21 index going up 3X means goods and services are 3X more expensive when paid with bitcoins, which means bitcoin has been devalued 3X.

It's bad for bitcoins for the index to go up 3X. It's like the CPI gone up 3X. You want the index to go down if you're holding bitcoins.

From your previous comments it seems you believe your net worth has gone up because of this index going up. This index going up has the opposite effect on your bitcoin based net worth. I hope I'm mistaken.

Re:Let Crypto Burn by anonporridge on Monday November 21, 2022 @02:03PM (#33696440)
You still don't seem to understand.

I suspect you asked your initial question incorrectly and wanted to know if my dollar denominated crypto holdings have increased or decreased in value. They have obviously decreased when measured in dollars.

When it comes to value, there is no objective measuring stick. There is no SI standard of measure for value. Every way to measure value is subjective and must be compared relative to other measures. You can measure your net worth by the measuring stick of dollars, euros, Venezuelan bolívars, oil, gold, bitcoin, cartons of eggs, or McDonalds big macs. The Big Mac index is a popular example of this, https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Big_Mac_Index

When you ask what my "bitcoin denominated net worth" has done, what you asking is what my net worth number has done when measured in terms of bitcoin rather than in terms of dollars. In this value measurement context, if all of my net worth was directly in bitcoin, there would be zero change, just like if all of my net worth was directly in dollars there would never be any change to my dollar denominated net worth.

Re:Let Crypto Burn by ww520 on Monday November 21, 2022 @07:03PM (#33699990)
> My bitcoin denominated net worth has gone up a lot this year……which has almost tripled in value this year.

Whatever make you happy. Happy investing.

Re:Let Crypto Burn by pcdoodle on Sunday November 20, 2022 @01:56PM (#33683978)
Indeed, Truth Engine :)
Re:Let Crypto Burn by anonporridge on Sunday November 20, 2022 @01:58PM (#33683996)
The timechain doesn't stop.

Tick tock, next block.