News for hackers. Stuff that matters.
Re:Sniper robot treats 500k plants per hour with 95% less ch... by modeless on Wednesday November 16, 2022 @04:56PM (#33631332)
Seems like it should hoe each weed instead of spraying it. I guess that's a little harder to do. Maybe a lot harder.

Two other things I thought were interesting in the video. One, the idea of mapping the whole field is pretty cool. There must be useful things you could do with a millimeter-scale 3D map of an entire field. Two, this is happening in California, just a few hours' drive from Silicon Valley. I hope some of the engineers laid off recently find work in ag tech, because there will be huge opportunities coming with the rise of computer vision and (hopefully soon) robotics.

Re:Sniper robot treats 500k plants per hour with 95% less ch... by ajpgrealish on Wednesday November 16, 2022 @05:07PM (#33631485)
Small Robot Company have a robot called Dick which uses "Non-Chemical Weeding", i.e. they zap the weed to kill it, and it's root. They use other small robots to do the mapping and planting. I really like the idea of small, specialised robots for different tasks.

https://www.smallrobotcompany.com/weed-killing

Re:Sniper robot treats 500k plants per hour with 95% less ch... by modeless on Wednesday November 16, 2022 @05:30PM (#33631799)
The text "to take place in early 2020" and "AVAILABLE 2021" on the front page of that site, in November 2022, does not inspire confidence.

I guess in the near term dozens of specialized robots for each task will be necessary, but the idea I like is teams of general purpose robots using simple tools to perform almost any task "manually". It's too early to implement that now, but I think it will be feasible within my lifetime.

Re:Sniper robot treats 500k plants per hour with 95% less ch... by busyant on Wednesday November 16, 2022 @05:29PM (#33631797)
> I really like the idea of small, specialised robots for different tasks

in my experience, this is the best approach. I worked at a few biotechs that did a lot of lab automation.

the robots that could do everything were hardly ever used because they did everything poorly and seemed to be constantly in need of repair.

the robots that could do one simple job were always in use.

Re:Sniper robot treats 500k plants per hour with 95% less ch... by danielheath on Wednesday November 16, 2022 @05:16PM (#33631632)
Weed zapping is fascinating - but putting the kind of power electronics required to deliver sufficient voltage in a mobile robot is terrifying from an OHSA perspective.

One group I'm familiar with are using 50kv (and "more than enough" amps) for the purpose.

Re:Sniper robot treats 500k plants per hour with 95% less ch... by colechristensen on Wednesday November 16, 2022 @05:38PM (#33631895)
It's not really. Plenty of people have handheld tasers powered by 9v batteries and plenty of farm equipment can (and does) mangle people not being careful around very dangerous machines.

This is just a misunderstanding of the risks involved in various things.

Re:Sniper robot treats 500k plants per hour with 95% less ch... by modeless on Wednesday November 16, 2022 @05:53PM (#33632091)
Yeah there are tons of really dangerous things on farms, like Paraquat, or power take-offs. Power doesn't have to be electrical to kill you. Mechanical power will do the job just fine.
Re:Sniper robot treats 500k plants per hour with 95% less ch... by danielheath on Wednesday November 16, 2022 @10:44PM (#33634684)
I'm well aware that it's far from the only thing that'll kill me on a farm.

That said, comparing a 50Kv shock to a handheld taser (which typically run at 300-500v) makes me think I might not be the one who misunderstands the risks.

Re:Sniper robot treats 500k plants per hour with 95% less ch... by wfme on Thursday November 17, 2022 @12:14AM (#33635251)
That 300-500v number is off by about 100x. A handheld taser typically runs at around 20,000 to 150,000 volts. This site lists a few alongside their voltage https://www.thehomesecuritysuperstore.com/blogs/the-home-sec...
Re:Sniper robot treats 500k plants per hour with 95% less ch... by colechristensen on Thursday November 17, 2022 @12:41AM (#33635415)
>(which typically run at 300-500v)

You're off by three orders of magnitude. You need about 32 million volts per meter to overcome the resistance of the air. For a gap of a centimeter, it's about a few hundred kilovolts.

And I grew up farming, I'm quite familiar with the dangers.

For example harvesting equipment... the big ones are sort of up to a 30 food wide chainsaw with conveyors and other grabby bits to suck you in. People need to be many meters away from those things while they're running for any sense of safety. A hot spark has nothing on many other dangers and if designed with any sense would only result in severe local burns. Plenty of farm equipment will effortlessly rip a limb off if it doesn't tear your entire body into bite sized chunks.

You know the machines that do that and you don't go near them. When you're the operator you must know where everyone is at all times and know what they mean to do... and be able to communicate with them with a series of gestures, eye contact, short yells, etc. If you don't it's trivially easy to kill your helpers.

Re:Sniper robot treats 500k plants per hour with 95% less ch... by marcosdumay on Wednesday November 16, 2022 @05:26PM (#33631761)
If there is nobody around when it's powered on, I don't see a problem.

If people have to stay around to care for it, then yes, it's scary.

Re:Sniper robot treats 500k plants per hour with 95% less ch... by fnordpiglet on Wednesday November 16, 2022 @06:06PM (#33632271)
I see no problem equipping a killer robot with lethal electricity and an AI guidance. It’s basically the same as Tesla autopilot beta, no?
Re:Sniper robot treats 500k plants per hour with 95% less ch... by taberiand on Wednesday November 16, 2022 @06:51PM (#33632773)
Maybe this is a false equivalence, but I think industrial scale leaching of poisons into the water supply is more terrifying and anything that can replace that is worth looking into.
Re:Sniper robot treats 500k plants per hour with 95% less ch... by Ekaros on Thursday November 17, 2022 @03:55AM (#33636468)
Farming machines are already rather deadly. They are big, have cutting implements... So it probably wouldn't change that much.
Re:Sniper robot treats 500k plants per hour with 95% less ch... by ilyt on Thursday November 17, 2022 @08:35AM (#33638613)
Go and see how combine looks and tell me you think otherwise farm machinery is very safe when used wrong.
Re:Sniper robot treats 500k plants per hour with 95% less ch... by illys on Wednesday November 16, 2022 @05:46PM (#33632000)
I saw on one of the illustrations that the spray is made of acetic acid. Pretty natural product, aka vinegar at low concentration.

Well targeted as they seem to do, I guess it is a good product to preserve the soil and wanted plants with no harmful residues.

Re:Sniper robot treats 500k plants per hour with 95% less ch... by modeless on Wednesday November 16, 2022 @05:58PM (#33632152)
That's cool, yeah, precise targeting should remove the need for highly toxic herbicide.
Re:Sniper robot treats 500k plants per hour with 95% less ch... by parineum on Thursday November 17, 2022 @03:08AM (#33636198)
That seems opposite to me. Precise targeting would allow the use of highly toxic herbicides in minute quantities.
Re:Sniper robot treats 500k plants per hour with 95% less ch... by hackerfromthefu on Thursday November 17, 2022 @08:17AM (#33638423)
Do the least harm possible!
Re:Sniper robot treats 500k plants per hour with 95% less ch... by modeless on Thursday November 17, 2022 @11:52AM (#33641709)
The reason herbicides have to be highly toxic is that they are sprayed indiscriminately, so only small quantities actually get on the target. Farmers don't prefer toxic things. They would prefer to use less toxic things, applied directly in large quantities to the target and not elsewhere.
Re:Sniper robot treats 500k plants per hour with 95% less ch... by esperent on Thursday November 17, 2022 @02:36AM (#33636018)
> I saw on one of the illustrations that the spray is made of acetic acid.

The cynic in me wants to point out that this is basically a commerce, so of course they use the best sounding chemical possible. Will they still use that by the time it becomes a commercial product? I guess only time will tell.

Re:Sniper robot treats 500k plants per hour with 95% less ch... by hackerfromthefu on Thursday November 17, 2022 @08:14AM (#33638396)
That's really cool, so glad to hear it!

I wonder about the effects of acidification after long term use. Perhaps some alkaline filler can be added to balance.

Re:Sniper robot treats 500k plants per hour with 95% less ch... by bluGill on Thursday November 17, 2022 @09:17AM (#33639168)
Vinegar is more toxic to humans than roundup. And you need a lot more of it to be effective.
Re:Sniper robot treats 500k plants per hour with 95% less ch... by illys on Thursday November 17, 2022 @10:01AM (#33639747)
Could you develop? Kind of toxicity? As traces in food? Source?

I put vinegar in my salad sauce, I would not dare with glyphosate.

Re:Sniper robot treats 500k plants per hour with 95% less ch... by bluGill on Thursday November 17, 2022 @11:48AM (#33641621)
Check the SDS for details, you can easily goggle it, though reading them is harder. You put dilute vinegar on your salad. You don't do that for glyphosate because it doesn't add any flavor, but if you put as much on your salad as you do vinegar it would harmless.
Re:Sniper robot treats 500k plants per hour with 95% less ch... by hydrox24 on Wednesday November 16, 2022 @06:43PM (#33632683)
Australia's CSIRO has a setup out at Boorowa[0] doing this kind of work. They're doing a lot of traditional research into monitoring and modelling technology, but also doing some neat digital twin style projects.

[0]: https://www.csiro.au/en/work-with-us/industries/agriculture/...

Re:Sniper robot treats 500k plants per hour with 95% less ch... by aerophilic on Wednesday November 16, 2022 @10:37PM (#33634630)
For tilling to kill weeds, there actually is one that does that, Farmwise[0].

The challenge with Agtech robots in general is that you need to be able to prove payback, including all operations costs, in ideally 12 months or less on equipment.

This is very hard for most crops because you have to be constantly moving from field to field. However, it is doable and I see it happening soon, starting in specific crops (My company L5 [1] is working this for strawberries).

However, as the price of raw tech inputs (robot arms, compute, cameras) continue to fall, I do see lots of “low hanging fruit” that can be won relatively soon, especially with smart software.

[0] https://farmwise.io/ [1] https://www.l5automation.com/

Re:Sniper robot treats 500k plants per hour with 95% less ch... by dhx on Thursday November 17, 2022 @12:02PM (#33641922)
I'm glad you mentioned the economics of automating farms. There are numerous products listed in this thread that only appear to target one crop type and only perform one low cost activity (spraying, weeding, etc) that is done once per growing season (and often once per year).

Automation of day-neutral strawberry picking sounded sensible on first glance to me because harvest occurs over many months of a year (extendable by transporting the robots to another region with different growing seasons) thus robots are not sitting around idle for 95% of the year. Additionally, harvesting strawberries is dangerous work for humans to perform due to repetitive twisting, bending and reaching.

However, looking deeper into the economics of strawberries (using Australia as an example), picking costs are stated to only be 20% of fixed growing costs[1] seemingly amounting to AUD$1.30/plant (USD$0.80-1.00/plant). With a typical density of 40000 plants/hectare, robots appear to only be cost neutral if they can be operated at AUD$52000/hectare (USD$30000-40000/hectare) for picking. This results in, for example, two AUD$26000/year (USD$15000-20000/year) robots assigned per hectare needing to pick at a rate of 2 seconds per plant[2] for 12 hours each every day. With 9 million tons of strawberries produced globally per year, the strawberry harvesting market would be AUD$11bn if Australian labour rates, likely amongst the highest, were the global norm.

Would it be fair to say that farm automation will only become viable if everyone accepts the true cost of growing produce is much higher than current prices. That, for example, wages for farm workers would need to be much higher (doubled or more) to be livable wages and also to compensate for injuries and health risks of farm work and an inability to work in manual labour jobs at older age. In Australia we're seeing many news articles on the topic of "lack of farm workers" so a significant upwards movement in farm worker wages seems possible. Or perhaps strict health and safety regulations introduced to protect farm workers from repetitive injuries would result in wide adoption of farm robotics? Or perhaps it will just be cheap robotics that results in mass uptake of farm robotics?.

[1] https://www.abc.net.au/news/rural/2022-06-25/breakdown-of-th...

[2] Per a 2019 example from one of your competitors (https://youtu.be/9cxHYEzMVKQ?t=106) it looks very difficult to pick at a rate of 2 seconds per plant without wastage (e.g. missing obscured berries) but my simple calculations are nonetheless optimistic.

Re:Sniper robot treats 500k plants per hour with 95% less ch... by Wahash-Hominid on Wednesday November 16, 2022 @11:18PM (#33634909)
Sydney based startup Agerris was doing mechanical weeding 2 years ago. Unfortunately they went under about a year ago. You can see their platform in action here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TR7FAtgZBzk
Re:Sniper robot treats 500k plants per hour with 95% less ch... by esperent on Thursday November 17, 2022 @02:30AM (#33635987)
> Seems like it should hoe each weed instead of spraying it.

Huh, I actually thought it was using a laser and the 95% chemicals meant through the entire farming process. In that case it's probably much less than 95% chemical use overall, there's still pesticides and fertilizer to consider, not to mention chemicals used in cleaning and packaging.

I wonder what kind of power you'd need to laser weeds at that speed? Now that I think about it, probably like, a lot. And maybe it'd heat up the surrounding plants too much.

Spraying with that much accuracy is still pretty cool though.