News for hackers. Stuff that matters.
Re:Erik Hoel on Effective Altruism, Utilitarianism, and the ... by throw_pm23 on Wednesday November 16, 2022 @07:54AM (#33622197)
> You KNOW the malaria nets are better than the donation to the local soccer team.

I most certainly don't know that. The more local, the more immediate, the less distance between action and effect, the less unintended consequences, the better.

Re:Erik Hoel on Effective Altruism, Utilitarianism, and the ... by circular_lights on Wednesday November 16, 2022 @08:35AM (#33622628)
10/10 would pick local soccer team anytime. I am not utilitarian and I do not believe in human interchangeability. I value the health of local youth in my backyard far more, especially when the cause is boys in sports.
Re:Erik Hoel on Effective Altruism, Utilitarianism, and the ... by sweetheart on Wednesday November 16, 2022 @08:59AM (#33622973)
Sure, but _why_ is the question. I cannot understand how you think more good comes from making sure the local boys soccer club has a clean field to play vs. ensuring 4 families will sleep without the risk of contracting malaria. What makes you value the former more than the latter?

If you were the family facing malaria, and someone tried to donate the nets to you, would you sell them and donate the proceeds to their local soccer club?

Re:Erik Hoel on Effective Altruism, Utilitarianism, and the ... by throw_pm23 on Wednesday November 16, 2022 @03:27PM (#33630033)
I'm confused about the _why_ question.

What makes me value the former more than the latter is that it is closer to me. My utility for problems near me is much higher than for problems far away.

If my family would face malaria, I would care more about that than about faraway soccer clubs.

Also, I find that goodwill at a distance has a terrible track record. In a recent case, someone who was preaching effective altruism stole 10B instead. I'd rather he stayed poor and donated $10 to the local soccer club.

Re:Erik Hoel on Effective Altruism, Utilitarianism, and the ... by circular_lights on Wednesday November 16, 2022 @05:20PM (#33631686)
"More good" reeks of nerdy utilitarianism which I completely reject. What makes me value the soccer team is love and kinship and vitalism. Mine extends to the local boys playing soccer. I want to see them thrive. I do not care about the malaria net folks. No ill will - I just do not care, I want them occupying no part of my brain.

And certainly no dorky nerds unable to comprehend human reality and attempting to force everyone in their abstract streamlined toy-reality with Philosophy 101 word games will change my mind.

Re:Erik Hoel on Effective Altruism, Utilitarianism, and the ... by sweetheart on Wednesday November 16, 2022 @10:11PM (#33634464)
yikes
Re:Erik Hoel on Effective Altruism, Utilitarianism, and the ... by samus on Wednesday November 16, 2022 @08:30AM (#33622576)
Considering that malaria infestation has historically complicated making use of the land available to humans all over the world, we know that efforts towards managing and eradicating malaria improves the human condition. Resistance to malaria and other diseases was one of the reasons why humans were trafficked all over the world.
Re:Erik Hoel on Effective Altruism, Utilitarianism, and the ... by throw_pm23 on Wednesday November 16, 2022 @08:40AM (#33622697)
I'll let historians sort that out, I care mostly for my immediate neighborhood and local effects.
Re:Erik Hoel on Effective Altruism, Utilitarianism, and the ... by samus on Wednesday November 16, 2022 @10:32AM (#33624723)
Mostly caring about your immediate neighbourhood and local effects does not mean ignoring that other places and their history exists.

For Malaria, there is not even a debate that it historically was a very widespread disease with high impact in economy and also in warfare. It is estimated that 60000 US soldiers died to Malaria alone in WW II.

Re:Erik Hoel on Effective Altruism, Utilitarianism, and the ... by throw_pm23 on Wednesday November 16, 2022 @03:29PM (#33630055)
Sure, and draining swamps caused floods and loss of biodiversity down the line.

I think people should be more modest and realistic, and not dream of solving every global problem. Not making things worse would already be a good start.

Re:Erik Hoel on Effective Altruism, Utilitarianism, and the ... by sweetheart on Wednesday November 16, 2022 @08:01AM (#33622264)
How do you come to that conclusion?
Re:Erik Hoel on Effective Altruism, Utilitarianism, and the ... by easygenes on Wednesday November 16, 2022 @08:10AM (#33622360)
Yeah, I'm genuinely curious as well. Malaria nets are cheap, well studied as highly effective, and directly prevent debilitating and life-threatening illness. We're talking about something that can fairly immediately save real existing lives, no hypotheticals or easy to conceive of major deleterious second order effects.
Re:Erik Hoel on Effective Altruism, Utilitarianism, and the ... by throw_pm23 on Wednesday November 16, 2022 @08:09AM (#33622346)
1) I prefer what I can verify, understand, and immediately experience to what I cannot.

2) I use the heuristic that where there are more participants and intermediaries, it is more likely that something ugly will happen even if the original intentions were noble, which is already a big if.

3) I prefer improving my own neighborhood which also affects me, to some abstract global goal which I find less tangible.

EDIT: 4) I am put off by the grandiosity of "saving lives" far away, and I prefer more modest goals, e.g. provide a warm soup for the local soccer team.

Re:Erik Hoel on Effective Altruism, Utilitarianism, and the ... by lupire on Wednesday November 16, 2022 @08:13AM (#33622387)
If you are saying that a near guaranteed miniscule benefit to rich people outweighs a risky gift to desperately sthenuffering people, you know you are doing so little good that it may as well be zero.
Re:Erik Hoel on Effective Altruism, Utilitarianism, and the ... by throw_pm23 on Wednesday November 16, 2022 @08:18AM (#33622450)
A "near zero" contribution would in many cases be a major improvement to what ends up being a massive negative contribution.
Re:Erik Hoel on Effective Altruism, Utilitarianism, and the ... by sweetheart on Wednesday November 16, 2022 @09:07AM (#33623113)
Why the parenthesis around “saving lives”? You seem skeptical that actually contributing to saving lives is possible.