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Re:FTC Restores Rigorous Enforcement of Law Banning Unfair M... by danielmarkbruce on Thursday November 10, 2022 @04:32PM (#33553715)
fwiw, I believe if you ask anyone who has interacted with any of the relevant (to competition) agencies globally, any law/rule which gives them more power is obviously bad. The humans who work there tend to be clueless about the specifics of an industry and imagine all kinds of nefarious intent everywhere. They are often intelligent people, but just don't understand the industry.
Re:FTC Restores Rigorous Enforcement of Law Banning Unfair M... by tablespoon on Thursday November 10, 2022 @04:36PM (#33553763)
> The humans who work there tend to be clueless about the specifics of an industry and imagine all kinds of nefarious intent everywhere. They are often intelligent people, but just don't understand the industry.

Sometimes that's a good thing. "Understand[ing] the industry" often means buying into its bullshit and looking at the world from its self-interested perspective.

Re:FTC Restores Rigorous Enforcement of Law Banning Unfair M... by danielmarkbruce on Thursday November 10, 2022 @04:38PM (#33553783)
Fair point.
Re:FTC Restores Rigorous Enforcement of Law Banning Unfair M... by Karunamon on Thursday November 10, 2022 @04:42PM (#33553818)
I mean this with complete sincerity but perhaps given current market, business, and global conditions, perhaps we should assume nefarious intent anytime a company breaks a rule in a way that causes them to profit? It's not like evil or shady behavior is in short supply.
Re:FTC Restores Rigorous Enforcement of Law Banning Unfair M... by danielmarkbruce on Thursday November 10, 2022 @04:51PM (#33553943)
The question is mostly what should the rules be, and how much leeway do you give an administrative agency to decide what they are and if they are being broken.

At least in the US, there is a very reasonable argument that the administrative agencies have overstepped.

As an example, from the FTC:

"Unfair methods of competition, the policy statement explains, are tactics that seek to gain an advantage while avoiding competing on the merits, and that tend to reduce competition in the market".

Who decides what "the merits" are, and who decides what the "market" is? They play a lot of games with these definitions. What are the merits in the smartphone business? Did apple abuse their position to unfairly take over the camera business? Is "cameras" even a market anymore? Is a camera so clearly part of a smartphone that it does indeed meet the definition of "merits"? Is Amazon abusing their position in e-commerce to take out the delivery business (fedex etc) by offering "free shipping" ? Is AWS abusing their position in IaaS to unfairly compete in the "server cpu" market? Is that even a market? Or is it not because x86 chips and ARM chips are thought of as different? Read the current case brought against Meta. The definition of "market" is... really pretty awful. Someone is just trying to make their career.

Re:FTC Restores Rigorous Enforcement of Law Banning Unfair M... by vkou on Thursday November 10, 2022 @05:42PM (#33554652)
> At least in the US, there is a very reasonable argument that the administrative agencies have overstepped.

Only if you ignore most of the text of the congressional acts that have created them. If the FTC's charter consisted of that one paragraph, it would be a reasonable criticism. It doesn't, and it's not.

It's true that there's a reactionary movement in the current SCOTUS that comes up with very odd interpretations of these congressional acts (like concluding that CO2 is not a pollutant, and thereby can't be regulated as one), but just because Amy Coney legislates from the bench that the sky is green doesn't necessarily make it so.

Re:FTC Restores Rigorous Enforcement of Law Banning Unfair M... by divyekapoor on Thursday November 10, 2022 @11:08PM (#33557213)
This reply is spot on. A vague policy statement means that the FTC itself can't be and won't be held to any standard. They might define Ecommerce one way when it helps with Amazon's prosecution and define it another way to help with Facebook and Google's prosecution. I read the policy statement - it's so broad that it's meaningless. Just lobby the politicians and hope and pray they keep the FTC at bay is not the way to run a developed country.
Re:FTC Restores Rigorous Enforcement of Law Banning Unfair M... by rodgerd on Thursday November 10, 2022 @04:57PM (#33554048)
Yes, letting Boeing tell the FAA whether their planes are safe has worked so well.
Re:FTC Restores Rigorous Enforcement of Law Banning Unfair M... by danielmarkbruce on Thursday November 10, 2022 @05:09PM (#33554204)
I'm talking the agencies who get involved in competition law. In the US that's the FTC and the DOJ, and others in different jurisdictions. It's pretty different from the FAA. The FAA is the aviation authority. They are presumably stacked with folks who understand a lot about aviation.
Re:FTC Restores Rigorous Enforcement of Law Banning Unfair M... by vkou on Thursday November 10, 2022 @05:20PM (#33554367)
> fwiw, I believe if you ask anyone who has interacted with any of the relevant (to competition) agencies globally, any law/rule which gives them more power is obviously bad.

And if you've ever interacted with an abusive corporation, you'll see that any rule, or lack of rule, which gives them more power over you, their customer/employee is obviously bad.

I, as a customer/employee/tenant would generally like my bank to not run off with my money after betting it all on red, my employer to not retaliate against me for reporting abuse, and my landlord to not throw me out on my ass because I complained about a rat infestation in his building.

Without any rules against unethical behavior, most organizations with power over you will happily turn to it, and will drive their more ethical competitors out of business.

Re:FTC Restores Rigorous Enforcement of Law Banning Unfair M... by danielmarkbruce on Thursday November 10, 2022 @05:25PM (#33554456)
Tis true. It's a conundrum. Do you give power to the regulator which will help them stop the bad guys, but also enable them to be bad guys at the cost of the good companies, or not?

Free market folks argue that the market can figure out every one of those things you mention. But most of them understand it isn't a free lunch.

Re:FTC Restores Rigorous Enforcement of Law Banning Unfair M... by vkou on Thursday November 10, 2022 @05:28PM (#33554479)
It is a conundrum, and it is one of the hardest political problems for humans to solve. It's half the reason we have politics.

I generally think that a case-by-case approach, with clear avenues for both rulemaking and redress, with democratic (direct or representative) control is a good starting point for solving this conundrum.

I allude to the problem of finding market solutions for ethics problems in the last part of my previous point. Markets do not optimize for ethical behaviour. Largely because of information assymetries, largely because people are not perfectly rational agents, largely because of the power imbalance that exists in many of them, and also largely because people are poor at measuring specific examples of long-tail risk.

Good rules also reduce market friction, because they let me make reasonable assumptions, like 'This product is probably not going to kill me when used as instructed, because it adheres to X, Y, Z objective standards', instead of having to go down an endless rabbit hole of 'Buyer beware, do your own research!'

Re:FTC Restores Rigorous Enforcement of Law Banning Unfair M... by danielmarkbruce on Thursday November 10, 2022 @05:37PM (#33554589)
>> Markets do not optimize for ethical behaviour

This is speculation and pedantry, but: What if they do? What if they already weed out 90% of it, and the remaining stuff that you notice is the optimal amount given the cost to weed it out (no matter how said weeding is done).

Re:FTC Restores Rigorous Enforcement of Law Banning Unfair M... by vkou on Thursday November 10, 2022 @05:50PM (#33554744)
Pedantic counter-example and Exhibit A: The endless litany of unraveled crypto scams that keep getting bigger and better, year over year. There's one that's going bust right now.

It's the poster child for a perfect market environment, where everyone involved is simply trying to optimize their returns, and there are next to no rules. It's also full of hucksters, thieves, conmen, liars, and flat-out frauds, to the utter detriment of any legitimate commerce in the space.

Re:FTC Restores Rigorous Enforcement of Law Banning Unfair M... by danielmarkbruce on Thursday November 10, 2022 @06:36PM (#33555236)
You don't think the market could sort this out through time? Free market believers don't think the market will sort out every problem overnight - it is pretty much the belief that the bad players get shaken out over time.

The harder ones seem to be healthcare (massive info asymmetry) and anything related to pollution (externalities). The market has had time on those and not done so well.

Re:FTC Restores Rigorous Enforcement of Law Banning Unfair M... by danaris on Thursday November 10, 2022 @10:10PM (#33556891)
Even if they did, it would be idealized free markets that did that.

Not the very much non-ideal, largely non-free markets we have, rife as they are with information asymmetry, non-commodity products, buyers with urgent time needs, and a host of other aspects that utterly invalidate the Free Market Will Solve Everything gospel that so many try to preach.

Re:FTC Restores Rigorous Enforcement of Law Banning Unfair M... by danielmarkbruce on Friday November 11, 2022 @01:35PM (#33564785)
The argument isn't that the free market will solve everything. It's that there isn't a better solution. It's a lower bar.
Re:FTC Restores Rigorous Enforcement of Law Banning Unfair M... by danaris on Friday November 11, 2022 @03:19PM (#33566261)
Well, that's trivially falsifiable.

A competently regulated market is better than a "free" (ie, unregulated) market in nearly all situations.

Re:FTC Restores Rigorous Enforcement of Law Banning Unfair M... by danielmarkbruce on Friday November 11, 2022 @06:32PM (#33568224)
On what planet does one falsify a claim by simply making the opposite claim?
Re:FTC Restores Rigorous Enforcement of Law Banning Unfair M... by nerdponx on Friday November 11, 2022 @06:24AM (#33559398)
I would go a step further and argue that markets optimize for institutions that will seek to consolidate monopoly power and destroy the freedom of the market in which they formed. They specifically optimize for unethical behavior, as a natural consequence of the incentive systems in place. I argue that this is true even if there is not a large bureaucratic government to take advantage of for regulatory capture.

Basically, classical economics is predicated on a knife-edge equilibrium that ironically needs government intervention in order to prevent people from deviating.

Re:FTC Restores Rigorous Enforcement of Law Banning Unfair M... by rz2k on Friday November 11, 2022 @02:08AM (#33558055)
For a while I reread William Langwiesche's 2003 article in The Atlantic* about Columbia's last flight[1] every year or so. I find it very easy to empathize with the insiders who actually understand all of the minutiae and imagine the frustration of dealing with outsiders who didn't understand any of the details or all the decision processes you and your team had already been through.

The point was that I didn't want to make the same mistakes, and I wanted to remind myself to be wary of "inside scoop" types of opinions, or placing too much weight on "reports from the frontlines", because I recognized that I was overly biased in this direction. Outsiders views, or fresh perspectives, as well as insights from a big picture also have value.

Every long gone institution or industry that now seems absurd with hindsight, also necessarily had some internal logic if it ever existed for decades.

[1] https://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/2003/11/columbi...