Andrej Karpathy: Why Tesla Removed Radar and Ultrasonic Sensors

Re:Andrej Karpathy: Why Tesla Removed Radar and Ultrasonic S... by Nomentatus on Sunday October 30, 2022 @05:20PM (#33398838)

No, he precisely said that the difference Lidar made was tested, and the delta (difference made) was quite small; not enough to outweigh the downsides. Elon has noted that humans do well, and that's relevant, but that observation was also tested, re lidar.

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Re:Andrej Karpathy: Why Tesla Removed Radar and Ultrasonic S... by NBJack on Sunday October 30, 2022 @07:32PM (#33400176)

Basically everything he said as a justification (sourcing, firmware, etc.) applies to every sufficiently advanced part of the vehicle. By that logic, they should not be using touchscreens on the center console, etc.

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Re:Andrej Karpathy: Why Tesla Removed Radar and Ultrasonic S... by Nomentatus on Sunday October 30, 2022 @08:04PM (#33400429)

If the safety delta was low after removing them, as 'tis with Lidar, absolutely.

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Re:Andrej Karpathy: Why Tesla Removed Radar and Ultrasonic S... by paulryanrogers on Sunday October 30, 2022 @08:22PM (#33400537)

It's also possible their LIDAR implementation was poor. Waymo uses LIDAR and has fewer incidents per mile.

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Re:Andrej Karpathy: Why Tesla Removed Radar and Ultrasonic S... by Nomentatus on Sunday October 30, 2022 @10:01PM (#33401217)

Good point. I'm pretty sure it was poorer, Waymo really goes all-in on Lidar, they still top-mount it don't they? Waymo is also solving a much more constrained problem, with far fewer vehicles, so fewer accidents doesn't surprise me.

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Re:Andrej Karpathy: Why Tesla Removed Radar and Ultrasonic S... by freejazz on Monday October 31, 2022 @12:56AM (#33402231)

They are doing exactly what Tesla isn't willing to do and are being responsible in exactly the way Tesla isn't.

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Re:Andrej Karpathy: Why Tesla Removed Radar and Ultrasonic S... by Nomentatus on Monday October 31, 2022 @06:11AM (#33403819)

But it's an expensive dead-end for most purposes, esp re the insane mapping. Ok for city robo-taxis. Doesn't solve the real problem to be solved.

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Re:Andrej Karpathy: Why Tesla Removed Radar and Ultrasonic S... by freejazz on Monday October 31, 2022 @10:28AM (#33406189)

Cars drive in cities, last I checked.

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Re:Andrej Karpathy: Why Tesla Removed Radar and Ultrasonic S... by Nomentatus on Monday October 31, 2022 @12:19PM (#33407956)

I guess you're saying that "cities are mapped, dude." But not mapped in anything like the way Waymo maps for this purpose: if I heard right, yesterday, mapped to the centimeter and very frequently updated to deal with any changes of any kind!

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Re:Andrej Karpathy: Why Tesla Removed Radar and Ultrasonic S... by freejazz on Monday October 31, 2022 @12:51PM (#33408605)

Driving in cities is a real problem that will really need to be solved.

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Re:Andrej Karpathy: Why Tesla Removed Radar and Ultrasonic S... by gibolt on Monday October 31, 2022 @04:50AM (#33403368)

Waymo has HD maps that require regular 'trawling', just like Google Street view. They are also very conservative in turns, generally avoiding unprotected lefts. They also are much less human-like.

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Re:Andrej Karpathy: Why Tesla Removed Radar and Ultrasonic S... by croes on Sunday October 30, 2022 @09:38PM (#33401043)

>and the delta (difference made) was quite small

But why. Because LIDAR doesn't help much in general or because the Tesla engineers aren't good at using the sensor data?

Same with the manufacturing.

Sounds to me like Tesla can't handle complexity. And if they can't handle the complexity of manufacturing, they surely can't handle the complexity of full autonomous driving.

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Re:Andrej Karpathy: Why Tesla Removed Radar and Ultrasonic S... by Nomentatus on Sunday October 30, 2022 @09:48PM (#33401116)

I don't think interpreting the lidar data and integrating it is a super-tough problem, it kinda comes in 3D, unlike stereoscopic vision. So I take it this means that the Lidar data rarely differed and it rarely mattered when it did.

Elon's companies have a long history of handling complexity very well (even, you know, actual rocket science) precisely because they relentlessly simplify everything they can. Raptor one is more complex that Raptor two, but I'll take the latter any day. Nobody else has a full-flow rocket engine. Many previous attempts were swallowed by the complexity of the task. Even Raptor one looks like a rat's nest - but unlike other attempts, it worked.

Tesla's manufacturing margins are far out in front of any other car company (see David Lee On Investing podcast.) Having simpler, larger parts made by much larger pressing machinery is a big part of why. Looks like they are (now) handling the complexity of manufacturing very well.

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