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Re:First-ever study shows bumble bees 'play' by scoofy on Friday October 28, 2022 @05:23PM (#33378093)
You're conflating consciousness with intelligence. The two are not the same.

One is the experience of qualia, and the ability to hold preferences.

The other is the behaviors associated with making predictions and intentionally manipulating the world to achieve tasks.

We have a hyper-intelligent chess engines that cannot be argued to be conscious. We also have small mammalian minds, like Koalas, that are dumb as a brick, but are very likely conscious.

Re:First-ever study shows bumble bees 'play' by throwaway3838g on Friday October 28, 2022 @05:35PM (#33378215)
That’s a good point. I suppose then, to a hyper intelligent alien species we would be the Koala’s, unintelligent but conscious.
Re:First-ever study shows bumble bees 'play' by ilkke on Friday October 28, 2022 @06:04PM (#33378560)
I am not entirely prepared to accept that koalas have small mammalian minds
Re:First-ever study shows bumble bees 'play' by steve_adams_86 on Friday October 28, 2022 @06:45PM (#33378917)
I realized recently there’s no evidence that they don’t, but a wealth of evidence that they do.

I watch animals very closely now and I see more all the time that they are just like me in most ways. I suppose I used to watch them as a person who eats them, and my comfort with doing so depended on not seeing them as conscious creatures like me. Now that I don’t eat them, it’s as though there are more similarities than there are differences.

I suspect if animals could speak, we’d realize they’re remarkably similar to us. This probably sounds ridiculous to many people, and would have to me once too.

A key part of this is not that I’m elevating animals’ conscience to that of humans so much as lowering humans’. We tend to think we’re exceptional, but I think our exception is probably just intelligence. The rest, I don’t know, I suspect we’re all very much alike.

Re:First-ever study shows bumble bees 'play' by ilkke on Sunday October 30, 2022 @04:09AM (#33392288)
Apologies, I should have made my comment clear instead of trying to be witty - what I meant was that Koalas are marsupials, not mammals.

That said, I agree with what you are saying. We tend to assume a bigger than likely distance between us and other animals.

Re:First-ever study shows bumble bees 'play' by steve_adams_86 on Monday October 31, 2022 @07:12PM (#33414671)
Ha, I completely overlooked that they’re marsupials, too.

Now I suppose neither of us are prepared to accept it.

Re:First-ever study shows bumble bees 'play' by Retric on Friday October 28, 2022 @08:20PM (#33379667)
Some level of intelligence is a prerequisite for experience of qualia.

A rock for example is below that threshold. The question then becomes what exactly is the minim level of perception we are willing to accept. Individual cells respond to their environment indirectly, that’s enough to qualify IMO but I accept people would disagree.

Which just illiterates people don’t generally use philosophical definitions directly. What they mean by qualia isn’t subjective conscious experience, it’s something else which they can’t actually describe that just so happens to conform exactly to their preconceived notions.

Re:First-ever study shows bumble bees 'play' by scoofy on Friday October 28, 2022 @09:11PM (#33379934)
The ideas is if you had some, theoretical, mechanical computer built of stone (something trivially producible), if we believe that any artificial intelligences can be sentient, then it would be trivial to extend this to create a sentient, but essentially just a complex stone object.
Re:First-ever study shows bumble bees 'play' by Retric on Friday October 28, 2022 @09:48PM (#33380176)
A single stone is different than a system consisting of large numbers of stones in some non random configuration.

It’s like the flaw in that “Chinese room” thought experiment. The person following instructions isn’t the room any more than the walls are. All that thought experiment demonstrates is a CPU has a more limited perspective than the computer it’s part of.

Re:First-ever study shows bumble bees 'play' by scoofy on Friday October 28, 2022 @09:59PM (#33380242)
I mean, showing that difference is extremely hard philosophically.
Re:First-ever study shows bumble bees 'play' by Retric on Friday October 28, 2022 @10:00PM (#33380246)
How so?

A specific rock inherently is whatever that rock is. That same rock can represent all finite messages at the same time in relation to it’s position along arbitrarily defined number lines. Nothing inherent to the rock changed as that meaning is external to it.

Re:First-ever study shows bumble bees 'play' by scoofy on Friday October 28, 2022 @10:22PM (#33380372)
Consciousness is an actual thing. It's not an idea. The idea that somehow a collection of stone objects springs forth a consciousness when arranged in one pattern versus another... is certainly an odd concept.
Re:First-ever study shows bumble bees 'play' by Retric on Friday October 28, 2022 @10:25PM (#33380391)
Why would you assume consciousness is a thing rather than a property of a system?

Temperature for example isn’t a substance. I am not saying consciousness couldn’t be a thing, but it just seems to be an assumption without justification.

As to arrangements of stuff being important, arrangement of individual pieces can make the difference between a watch and a pile of pieces or a person and a dead body. Many emergent properties depend on the specific arrangements of components.

Re:First-ever study shows bumble bees 'play' by scoofy on Saturday October 29, 2022 @12:45AM (#33381058)
>Why would you assume consciousness is a thing rather than a property of a system?

If consciousness were simply the property of a system, then I'd assume it is effectively an illusion. I'm not sure, and I'm not saying this it would be de facto wrong, I'm just saying it's absurd for me to conceive of it this way, because if it is the case that it's a byproduct of a system, then there is effectively no self. It may be the case that that is true, bit it's useless to conceive of it.

Re:First-ever study shows bumble bees 'play' by Stupulous on Saturday October 29, 2022 @02:03AM (#33381415)
Is math an illusion? Math is a property of systems, as is our and our calculators ability to do it. I would argue that makes it more real.

When you see an object in reality, you're really making a series of assumptions. What you see is reflected light, and you construct a highly innacurate but useful model of what that light logically implies. Something that is external can only be perceived epistemically, as a sufficiently good guess. There's no evidence we're not in a simulation, so it's a toss-up as to whether anything physical exists at all.

Contrast the concept of self awareness. 'I think, therefore I am' is not a guess. It is a certainty, regardless of the broader context, that somewhere, something is a host to my experiences and thoughts.

Tangent: You can extend that a little bit by reasoning that you exist, therefore the things you interact with must exist as something. That doesn't get you past the possibility of the matrix, but it does escape total nihilism.

Re:First-ever study shows bumble bees 'play' by Retric on Saturday October 29, 2022 @09:08AM (#33383714)
As I said in my first post “What they mean by qualia isn’t subjective conscious experience, it’s something else which they can’t actually describe that just so happens to conform exactly to their preconceived notions.”
Re:First-ever study shows bumble bees 'play' by nicoburns on Saturday October 29, 2022 @07:02AM (#33382928)
> Some level of intelligence is a prerequisite for experience of qualia.

How do you know that? It’s entirely possible that a rock has all sorts going on that we just can’t detect.

Which sounds facetious, but given that we can’t even detect consciousness in humans, it seems difficult to rule it out entirely.

Re:First-ever study shows bumble bees 'play' by Retric on Saturday October 29, 2022 @09:06AM (#33383703)
I wouldn’t say it’s a requirement for qualia, but rather for experience.