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Re:One Store’s Decision to Leave San Francisco over Crime by swilliamsio on Thursday October 27, 2022 @08:44AM (#33356644)
Physically placing police officers outside literally every store in a city seems very impractical and expensive.
Re:One Store’s Decision to Leave San Francisco over Crime by treis on Thursday October 27, 2022 @09:21AM (#33357087)
The guys post is interesting to sort of see the change in society.

Times were that the shop owner would physically stop shop lifters. Now we mostly have low wage employees in shops. Understandable that they don't want the risk of injury and liability so they don't stop shoplifters.

Ok, so we hire specialized employees ostensibly trained in security. But due to liability reasons they aren't allowed to physically stop shoplifters. That makes them basically useless.

Ok, so well there's always cops. But they have a similar cost benefit analysis as the other parties with the same result. It's not worth it to the individual cops to intervene. Why risk going viral over some druggie stealing $100 worth of stuff?

The DA/politicians have a similar calculus. Why spend $50k locking up some druggie because they stole $100 worth of stuff? And why risk the blowback of a police brutality incident?

Re:One Store’s Decision to Leave San Francisco over Crime by hotpotamus on Thursday October 27, 2022 @09:34AM (#33357243)
> Why risk going viral over some druggie stealing $100 worth of stuff?

I'm sure that's a factor, but physical altercations also bring risk to the cop. I don't know how generous their disability pensions are, but I suspect it's better for them and their family to still be able to work. Also, anyone in the US can be armed which tends to raise the stakes that cops perceive with every interaction - look at their training material/propaganda sometime and it paints a very adversarial picture.

Re:One Store’s Decision to Leave San Francisco over Crime by pmoriarty on Thursday October 27, 2022 @10:45AM (#33358297)
"The DA/politicians have a similar calculus. Why spend $50k locking up some druggie because they stole $100 worth of stuff?"

It's not their money, so many of them have no problem spending it.

That's not to mention those who personally benefit from putting more people in jail because they have investments in the prison industry, get some sort of bribe/kickback, or just have an easier time getting elected/appointed because they're "tough on crime".

Re:One Store’s Decision to Leave San Francisco over Crime by bpodgursky on Thursday October 27, 2022 @08:48AM (#33356700)
These are professional criminals who raid multiple stores a day, every day.

You don't have to catch and convict them every time to be effective. If you caught and convicted even 2% of the crimes, crime would be massively lower within 6 months, because it's the same people doing it over and over.

Re:One Store’s Decision to Leave San Francisco over Crime by db48x on Thursday October 27, 2022 @08:53AM (#33356745)
That assumes that they are actually convicted and put in jail. The DA doesn’t believe that putting people in jail is effective at reducing crime, and so just doesn’t.
Re:One Store’s Decision to Leave San Francisco over Crime by yodon on Thursday October 27, 2022 @09:03AM (#33356850)
The DA you are referring to was removed from office five months ago and replaced by attorneys who quit his office in disgust and led the effort to recall him.

SF still has a lot of work to do but Chessa Boudin is no longer running the SF DA's office.

Re:One Store’s Decision to Leave San Francisco over Crime by db48x on Thursday October 27, 2022 @09:17AM (#33357028)
s/doesn’t/didn’t/g
Re:One Store’s Decision to Leave San Francisco over Crime by ilyt on Thursday October 27, 2022 @09:17AM (#33357029)
And we go back to "how about you just enforce the law, catch people breaking it and put them in jail"
Re:One Store’s Decision to Leave San Francisco over Crime by wahnfrieden on Thursday October 27, 2022 @08:54AM (#33356754)
how does the cost of this compare with say UBI? bearing in mind there's a cost to illegal/legalized civil forfeiture theft, or caging more people, as well
Re:One Store’s Decision to Leave San Francisco over Crime by xienze on Thursday October 27, 2022 @08:58AM (#33356793)
Are you laboring under the delusion that these same criminals wouldn't happily pocket the UBI in between shoplifting raids for which they face almost no consequences?
Re:One Store’s Decision to Leave San Francisco over Crime by formerkrogemp on Thursday October 27, 2022 @09:17AM (#33357034)
Obviously, if UBI is implemented, laws would still need to be enforced.
Re:One Store’s Decision to Leave San Francisco over Crime by wahnfrieden on Thursday October 27, 2022 @08:59AM (#33356806)
got a source for calling me (or that) delusional?
Re:One Store’s Decision to Leave San Francisco over Crime by gsinclair on Thursday October 27, 2022 @09:10AM (#33356947)
Category error: the claim was that an idea is delusional, not a person.
Re:One Store’s Decision to Leave San Francisco over Crime by wahnfrieden on Thursday October 27, 2022 @09:18AM (#33357041)
how is this helpful? it's not even correct
Re:One Store’s Decision to Leave San Francisco over Crime by tristor on Thursday October 27, 2022 @11:17AM (#33358850)
You’re making the error in belief that criminals primarily commit crime out of necessity, rather than out of inculcated behavioral habit. At least in the US, most crimes are committed by people who were brought up from a young age in a culture of criminality. There is no ethical or moral dilemma on the part of the criminal, their behavior is fully in line with the social mores of their cultural upbringing.

The folks running in shoplifting and robbery gangs are not stealing a loaf of bread to feed their starving children, criminality is their profession.

Re:One Store’s Decision to Leave San Francisco over Crime by wahnfrieden on Thursday October 27, 2022 @11:40AM (#33359252)
I didn’t say that or theorize motivations but I do see research finding strong negative correlations between violent crime and minimum incomes
Re:One Store’s Decision to Leave San Francisco over Crime by tristor on Thursday October 27, 2022 @12:28PM (#33360036)
> I do see research finding strong negative correlations between violent crime and minimum incomes

Yes, poverty and crime do correlate strongly. Although be careful about conflating violent crime and property crime with each other.

That said, correlation is not causation. There is likely /some/ causative element between poverty and crime, but it is not absolute, rather poverty is also strongly correlated with other non-criminal behaviors that both lead to poverty and lead to crime. There is definitely a cultural element in wealthy countries to generational poverty, just as there is a cultural element to criminality.

If we can break that cycle for people, it benefits society as a whole, and I think it's worth investing what we can as a society into doing so, however current research certainly doesn't support deferment of responsibility for criminality because of poverty.

Re:One Store’s Decision to Leave San Francisco over Crime by bpodgursky on Thursday October 27, 2022 @10:35AM (#33358097)
Re:One Store’s Decision to Leave San Francisco over Crime by bpodgursky on Thursday October 27, 2022 @10:48AM (#33358366)
I think the rest of the developed world provides good evidence that you can punish people for crimes without abusing civil asset forfeiture. It's pretty bad-faith to conflate the two.
Re:One Store’s Decision to Leave San Francisco over Crime by wahnfrieden on Thursday October 27, 2022 @11:41AM (#33359271)
We’re talking about America where it is part of policing by policy and norm
Re:One Store’s Decision to Leave San Francisco over Crime by bpodgursky on Thursday October 27, 2022 @12:06PM (#33359646)
> where it is part of policing by policy and norm

Except that's just not true. The US has thousands of mostly independent police departments. Some use civil asset forfeiture (fewer, now that the supreme court has stepped in). Many don't.

What a small town in Alabama does has no connection with what the SFPD does.

Re:One Store’s Decision to Leave San Francisco over Crime by wahnfrieden on Thursday October 27, 2022 @12:10PM (#33359712)
sfpd seize.
Re:One Store’s Decision to Leave San Francisco over Crime by jeffbee on Thursday October 27, 2022 @09:00AM (#33356817)
You don't need that. We have physical police officers who are sometimes present in some places and they don't do anything. They are on a tacit strike and have been for years.

If you look at SF compstat, larceny-theft is on pace to be about 34,000 citywide this year, which will put thefts for this year lower than every year 2013-2019, and higher than 2020-21, which were exceptionally low (pandemic).

If you look at the FBI UCR report you'll see that clearance of theft is on a 40-year-long monotonic decline. Theft rate was about the same around 1990, but the SFPD clearance rate was 3-5x higher back then. This has nothing to do with the DA and everything to do with the SFPD being a civic cancer who refuse to do their jobs.

Anyway if you want to know why we have to constantly hear about thefts in SF which are objectively at the lowest levels in a recent years, here's the explanation for that: https://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/2022/10/26/crime-mid...

Re:One Store’s Decision to Leave San Francisco over Crime by HPsquared on Thursday October 27, 2022 @09:14AM (#33356995)
With a 2.4% clearance rate on reported cases, most people aren't going to bother reporting thefts.
Re:One Store’s Decision to Leave San Francisco over Crime by jeffbee on Thursday October 27, 2022 @09:19AM (#33357052)
When citizens try to report crimes, the SFPD will just stand there ignoring them.

https://www.sfchronicle.com/sf/bayarea/heatherknight/article...

When the district attorney is busy busting a car burglary gang, doing the SFPD's job for them, the SFPD refuses to help.

https://www.ksbw.com/article/sfpd-refused-to-help-stop-san-f...

SFPD is a reactionary gang who are invested in making crime in SF be and appear to be as bad as possible.

Re:One Store’s Decision to Leave San Francisco over Crime by leephillips on Thursday October 27, 2022 @09:40AM (#33357330)
> This has nothing to do with the DA and everything to do with the SFPD being a civic cancer who refuse to do their jobs.

Maybe...but the two might be related, no? After some years of the police observing that the people they arrest are released with no charges and no prosecution, why would they bother to keep arresting people? It sounds demoralizing.

Re:One Store’s Decision to Leave San Francisco over Crime by jeffbee on Thursday October 27, 2022 @12:04PM (#33359605)
Now explain why the same decline is seen across every urban police department in the nation regardless of local politics.

Police productivity and effectiveness is a nationwide crisis.

Re:One Store’s Decision to Leave San Francisco over Crime by mint2 on Thursday October 27, 2022 @10:36AM (#33358124)
The sf cops make the $1.7M single stall toilet look like a bargain.

45 traffic enforcement offices only manager to give out an average of 10 ticks every day. That’s not each, that’s as a whole department. https://www.sfchronicle.com/sf/bayarea/heatherknight/article...

Re:One Store’s Decision to Leave San Francisco over Crime by wahnfrieden on Thursday October 27, 2022 @12:08PM (#33359678)
Note that California police steal millions a year
Re:One Store’s Decision to Leave San Francisco over Crime by vanilla_nut on Thursday October 27, 2022 @06:55PM (#33365126)
You make a good point that political propaganda is driving this conversation about crime, largely because Fox and TPTB of conservative media think they can blame crime on Democrats to increase Republicans' chances of winning in the midterm.

At the same time, I've lived in US cities for the past 7 years. 6 months ago, I moved to a small town. Why? It wasn't because I don't like city amenities, or I can't afford city prices. I moved because the city I lived in didn't feel safe. Between the rampant bike theft, the rampant auto theft, the break-ins, and the muggings, I did not feel like trying to walk and bike around my city any more. It just felt too risky.