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Re:Google Has Most of My Email Because It Has All of Yours (... by simias on Sunday October 23, 2022 @08:22AM (#33306385)
And that's why web3 frustrates me to no end. Decentralized services were common in the "old" internet, web3 just takes than and adds a layer of ponzi and speculation on top of them.

If bittorent was invented today you'd have to buy into some pyramid scheme to use it.

Beyond that having a trusted third party does suck for some things, but at least it means that I have a recourse if something goes wrong. With cryptocrap I'm one hack away from losing my life savings, my domain, the history of all my transactions and even my monkey pictures!

Re:Google Has Most of My Email Because It Has All of Yours (... by rglullis on Sunday October 23, 2022 @08:37AM (#33306470)
Tell me how decentralized services allow applications to be permissionless, censorship- and sybil-resistant without a blockchain. I will make both of us rich.
Re:Google Has Most of My Email Because It Has All of Yours (... by williamtrask on Sunday October 23, 2022 @10:06AM (#33307113)
Tell me how blockchain makes anything Sybil-resistant and I’ll bite.

I can create as many Bitcoin/eth/etc wallets as I want.

Re:Google Has Most of My Email Because It Has All of Yours (... by Kerbonut on Sunday October 23, 2022 @11:48AM (#33307830)
Ethereum combats that with the concept of gas. You have to pay to play, which is a concept I’ve heard repeated tons of places for ending spam email.
Re:Google Has Most of My Email Because It Has All of Yours (... by pdpi on Sunday October 23, 2022 @12:03PM (#33307951)
Gas doesn't do much for Cybil resistance, it's largely meant to stop you from clogging up the network by publishing a transaction that executes the busy beaver function on some nasty input, or something similarly hostile.
Re:Google Has Most of My Email Because It Has All of Yours (... by pdpi on Sunday October 23, 2022 @11:55AM (#33307881)
There's plenty of really good criticisms of cryptocurrencies, but that's not one of them.

The whole point of proof of work is Sybil-resistance. Because your voting power is tied to your hash rate, you can't just conjure up a bunch of voting power by creating as many wallets as you want. Ethereum's move to proof of stake keeps Sybil resistance but trades the power consumption of PoW for some amount of centralisation (because you need to hold funds to vote).

Re:Google Has Most of My Email Because It Has All of Yours (... by PaulHoule on Sunday October 23, 2022 @10:07AM (#33307117)
‘Make both of us rich’ is exactly what we’re afraid of.
Re:Google Has Most of My Email Because It Has All of Yours (... by rglullis on Sunday October 23, 2022 @01:16PM (#33308515)
What are you afraid of, really? People that can make innovations?

My point was that the reason that people are doing all this work on the blockchain because no other solution has been shown to be better. Anyone that says "blockchain is not needed for that" should at least provide a better solution, or say "I actually prefer to keep the status quo".

Re:Google Has Most of My Email Because It Has All of Yours (... by joshspankit on Monday October 24, 2022 @09:07AM (#33316138)
I’m not the OP, but I think there is a very real concern that a single person or single group of people who create the “new better system” can significantly drain the resources of everyone else.

We actively see this all the time on smaller scales (credit cards, global franchises, FAANG), but the idea of someone doing it at a larger scale should make us hesitate.

Re:Google Has Most of My Email Because It Has All of Yours (... by rglullis on Monday October 24, 2022 @10:25AM (#33317057)
Oh, where do I begin?

- You do realize that the comment was tongue-in-cheek?

- There is no "resource draining" here. Even if someone found a way to solve the problem of distributed consensus without using a blockchain and found a way to make money out of it, they would be rich by wealth creation: new products, new services, new business.

Re:Google Has Most of My Email Because It Has All of Yours (... by PaulHoule on Monday October 24, 2022 @11:20AM (#33317872)
Web3 is often more interested in moving money around (e.g. "Ponzi Schemes") than really creating anything.

Real innovation is a lot of hard work. Recently I read a book by this guy

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lenny_Lipton

because I am teaching myself to make stereograms. Lipton spent a few years in the 1970s figuring out how to make quality stereo movies with the goal of developing a better system for exhibiting stereo movies. In 1980 he wrote a book (that book) which was a lot like a PhD thesis, he then invented the modern system for 3D movies with circular polarized light and sold his company in 2005. In the end he "got rich" but it wasn't quick.

The blockhead ideology is a lot like the Amway ideology... Really working, creating something, building something, serving customers, is a lot of work for not enough remuneration. There's got to be some magic secret to riches without effort, and once you've got people to believe it exists, you can exploit them.

Re:Google Has Most of My Email Because It Has All of Yours (... by rglullis on Monday October 24, 2022 @01:22PM (#33319552)
Condescending much?

> Web3 is often more interested in moving money around (e.g. "Ponzi Schemes") than really creating anything.

And "Web 2.0" was more interested in taking some Unix utility and turning them into a web service that could be walled off and monetized. There hardly was any ~real innovation~.

See how ridiculous it sounds?

Re:Google Has Most of My Email Because It Has All of Yours (... by joshspankit on Monday October 24, 2022 @07:16PM (#33323912)
> You do realize that the comment was tongue-in-cheek?

Why would I? It's well-established that tone does not come across through text.

> There is no "resource draining" here. Even if someone found a way to solve the problem of distributed consensus without using a blockchain and found a way to make money out of it, they would be rich by wealth creation: new products, new services, new business.

While I see what you're saying, I don't think I properly explained my point as yours is not a counter to it. By "resource draining" I mean that overall the creators could get richer compared to everyone else. Even if they took say $0.01 from every transaction those pennies slowly add up. A dollar 'spent' by changing hands 10 times is actually $0.90. A dollar 'spent' 100 times has been effectively drained of all it's value with that value funnelled to the hands of those running the system. In a scenario like that, wealth creation as you've defined it actually pours fuel on the fire. Every business uses a huge amount of transactions to pay operational costs, and all of their customers generate transactions every time they pay.

We currently have this playing out in various ways (for example franchise markups) and even though it's so highly fragmented it's still an issue where wealth is concentrating at the top. So it follows that if the rich get richer, the rest must get less rich by comparison.

Re:Google Has Most of My Email Because It Has All of Yours (... by coldtea on Sunday October 23, 2022 @10:25AM (#33307265)
Tells us how blockchain allows applications to be permissionless, censorship- and sybil-resistant in any way that matters and doesn't conflict with the use of said apps.
Re:Google Has Most of My Email Because It Has All of Yours (... by rglullis on Sunday October 23, 2022 @11:47AM (#33307824)
ENS and Handshake are exact examples of that.
Re:Google Has Most of My Email Because It Has All of Yours (... by pabs3 on Sunday October 23, 2022 @09:16PM (#33311957)
The GNU Name System does this AFAIK:

https://www.gnunet.org/en/gns.html

Re:Google Has Most of My Email Because It Has All of Yours (... by rglullis on Sunday October 23, 2022 @10:01PM (#33312229)
GNS is not globally unique. It is censorship resistant, but it is not permissionless.
Re:Google Has Most of My Email Because It Has All of Yours (... by jkepler on Sunday October 23, 2022 @09:29AM (#33306837)
> If bittorent was invented today you'd have to buy into some pyramid scheme to use it.

Bitcoin was effectively invented 'today', yet you don't have to buy into a pyramid scheme to use it.[1] For example, you could simply use it for cross-border remittance to avoid paying Western Union's high fees, without ever holding bitcoin, by using an app like Strike to send dollars from the US to El Salvador (using bitcoin's instantaneous lightning network as the payment rails behind the scenes)[2]. Or you could prove the existence of a digital document at a certain time by using Peter Todd's Open Timestamps[3], which simply puts a hash or your file into an Op Return on bitcoin's blockchain. Or, you could work on developing software or providing support or writing tutorials for the bisq protocol, get paid for your work with their bisq token (which is simply colored bitcoin), and cash out to have you national currency dumped in your bank account using the bisq software which has been developed and supported by a decentralized community with its governance built directly on bitcoin.[4]

If you really still think bitcoin is a pyramid scheme, there's plenty or ways one could benefit from it without having to "buy in" or hold it. But if you put in the time and learn, you'll discover bitcoin is innovative technology, distinctly separate from the crypto space awash with scams and rug-pulls, like the fiat world already is.

[1] https://www.lynalden.com/bitcoin-ponzi-scheme/

[2] https://strike.me/

[3] https://opentimestamps.org/

[4] https://bisq.network/

Re:Google Has Most of My Email Because It Has All of Yours (... by Huh1337 on Sunday October 23, 2022 @01:47PM (#33308746)
Domains weren't decentralized at any point in history. IP address allocation is also managed centrally.

> but at least it means that I have a recourse if something goes wrong

Have you actually tried it out? I lost several domains through no fault of mine (2 times fault of registrar, 1 time fault of national TLD manager) and absolutely nobody helped me. Even tried suing - in 2 cases (the registrar fault) I got small monetary compensation for lost profit (so good luck with personal domains) but the domain was always lost forever. And when it was the TLD's fault I got nothing whatsoever.

Re:Google Has Most of My Email Because It Has All of Yours (... by Ajedi32 on Monday October 24, 2022 @10:18AM (#33316932)
The problem with decentralized systems that don't include a currency component is that there's no extrinsic incentive to contribute anything to the network, only to consume.

BitTorrent suffers from this problem; they even have a term for it: leeching. It's managed to survive despite this purely off of the generosity and goodwill of a community of dedicated users, but if BitTorrent were to ever have its eternal September moment I suspect the problem would quickly be felt rather acutely.

With other systems like decentralized cloud storage[1] or decentralized DNS[2] where there are no inherent practical limits on how many resources a single user can consume, the consequences of not including a currency component would be even more severe.

As for the "no recourse" problem, that's inherent to the very idea of self-sovereignty. Yes it's a weakness with decentralized systems, but it's also their greatest strength.

[1]: https://sia.tech/

[2]: https://handshake.org/