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Re:OpenBSD 7.2 by nazgulsenpai on Thursday October 20, 2022 @10:41AM (#33275443)
> Fixed luna88k MULTIPROCESSOR kernels booting with CPU modules installed in arbitrary slots.

An OS release capable of running on the latest hardware in 2022 is still making optimizations for a niche system from the late 80s/early 90s. There's something very beautiful about that.

Re:OpenBSD 7.2 by jrumbut on Thursday October 20, 2022 @10:50AM (#33275605)
I searched for this luna88k and was taken to a Wikipedia page that I read until I realized it was for a computer called LUNA but it had a 68k processor.

The reason it came up was a tiny quote from the NetBSD announcement of Luna 68k support which mentions its "rare cousin" the 88k LUNA.

Now that's niche!

Re:OpenBSD 7.2 by reaperducer on Thursday October 20, 2022 @11:19AM (#33276061)
I thought I knew a lot about 68k processors, but "88k" is new to me. It turns out to be the Motorola 88100¹, which was used in Unisys servers running Unix.

¹https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Motorola_88100

Re:OpenBSD 7.2 by kalleboo on Thursday October 20, 2022 @11:38AM (#33276352)
I only know about the 88k since Apple prototyped using it for their first RISC Mac back in the day before pushing for the PowerPC alliance
Re:OpenBSD 7.2 by lukeh on Thursday October 20, 2022 @02:10PM (#33278479)
NeXT as well I believe!
Re:OpenBSD 7.2 by jkepler on Thursday October 20, 2022 @05:55PM (#33281341)
M'y physics prof loved his NeXT machine back in the day.
Re:OpenBSD 7.2 by cafard on Thursday October 20, 2022 @11:52AM (#33276552)
Data General built a machine called the Aviion with the 88K.
Re:OpenBSD 7.2 by johndoe0815 on Thursday October 20, 2022 @04:50PM (#33280511)
Motorola had a lot of VME bus boards with 88100/88110 CPUs. There's still a web site dedicated to the 88k CPUs at http://www.m88k.com

Fun fact - the 88k was designed by Mitch Alsup, who also designed SPARC CPUs for Ross, x86s for AMD and others. He is retired, but still active in the comp.arch Usenet newsgroup.

Re:OpenBSD 7.2 by SoftTalker on Thursday October 20, 2022 @03:07PM (#33279239)
Also a good example of what I understand the OpenBSD development goals to be: developers work on the features and hardware support that interest them. It isn't a popularity contest; targeting the most popular platforms or growing the number of users of OpenBSD is not a project goal.

So as long as there are developers who want to do the work to support the 88k LUNA (whatever it is) then it will happen.

More specifically:

https://www.openbsd.org/goals.html

Re:OpenBSD 7.2 by r12343a_19 on Thursday October 20, 2022 @12:18PM (#33276939)
Yet, they dropped support for i386DX and some older (386) Cyrix?
Re:OpenBSD 7.2 by tremon on Thursday October 20, 2022 @12:38PM (#33277215)
IIRC, the 386 did not have atomic load/store operations (XADD, CMPXCHG), so it's much harder to write reliable semaphores/mutexes on that platform. I'm surprised OpenBSD supported it for this long.
Re:OpenBSD 7.2 by xxpor on Thursday October 20, 2022 @12:42PM (#33277277)
Is there an SMP version of the 386?

You may need locks on a non-SMP system (since you can still have concurrency), but without parallelism you don't need atomics... right?

Re:OpenBSD 7.2 by my123 on Thursday October 20, 2022 @01:08PM (#33277647)
Re:OpenBSD 7.2 by xxpor on Thursday October 20, 2022 @01:20PM (#33277822)
of COURSE there's a Raymond Chen blog post about this :D
Re:OpenBSD 7.2 by tremon on Thursday October 20, 2022 @01:05PM (#33277609)
The 386 still has hardware and software interrupts which might just happen between the load and store instructions, so it's not as simple as "we don't need atomics".

If you were writing code specifically for the 386, I suppose you could implement all semaphores as critical sections to guard against external interrupts; I see no reason why that wouldn't work. But realistically, that code would be more of a museum piece than something you'd want to maintain in a 2022 operating system.

Re:OpenBSD 7.2 by xxpor on Thursday October 20, 2022 @01:21PM (#33277841)
Ah interrupts, of course.

/me goes back to his polling-only application :)

(we have an interrupt, but it's "the watchdog fired and you're about to die anyway", so not exactly complex to handle...)

Re:OpenBSD 7.2 by tinglymintyfrsh on Thursday October 20, 2022 @04:42PM (#33280393)
I'm trying to remember from the last em64t/ia32e & ia32 ISA toy OS I messed around with.

i386 ISA is the bare minimum for functioning protected mode to be better than real-mode DOS. i286 protected mode is absolute trash.

i386 is so bad at dealing with SMP primitives, it was standard practice to have a non-SMP kernel. Then, you get into the business of maintaining 2 kernel flavors or a major kernel feature flag.

For those interested, there is a quirky processor mode trick called "unreal mode" that allows flat addressing without switching to protected mode (no protections, just like real-mode DOS).

Re:OpenBSD 7.2 by johnklos on Thursday October 20, 2022 @01:51PM (#33278225)
The toolchains dropped support for the i80386, not the OSes directly.

Intel, as they're known for doing, half-assed many things. Even though the 32 bit mode on the i80386 wouldn't be compatible with i8086 real mode and they could've made vast improvements, they decided to make just a mediocre 32 bit CPU, since they figured most people would just be running it as a super fast i8086.

The m68020 in 1984, by comparison, was much more forward thinking. It had atomic operations, could exist in a multi-processor environment much more easily than an i80386, and it can still run a modern OS (NetBSD) in 2022.

Re:OpenBSD 7.2 by tedunangst on Thursday October 20, 2022 @03:13PM (#33279298)
None of this actually relevant to openbsd dropping 386 support 15 years ago.
Re:OpenBSD 7.2 by sidkshatriya on Thursday October 20, 2022 @04:08PM (#33280018)
> None of this actually relevant to openbsd dropping 386 support 15 years ago.

Well, I think the argument being made (implicitly) was:

If Intel had made a decent and capable implementation of 386 with forward looking CPU instructions etc. 386 could have been alive and kicking today in many more operating systems and platforms.

Re:OpenBSD 7.2 by tedunangst on Thursday October 20, 2022 @04:17PM (#33280119)
It's more like the PC platform has continued to evolve in many ways, and 30 year old museum pieces aren't particularly interesting. Contrast with the mac68k platform, which is frozen in time. You don't see anybody trying to build one kernel that boots on every Mac ever made because the CPU has changed several times, but it wouldn't be pleasant even with continuity.
Re:OpenBSD 7.2 by pseudostem on Thursday October 20, 2022 @04:48PM (#33280474)
IIRC, the argument from the developers on OpenBSD misc mailing lists is that developing on 30 year museum pieces gives them perspective on the difference between right and wrong. It exposes them to more "stuff" than if it were the other way around.
Re:OpenBSD 7.2 by tedunangst on Thursday October 20, 2022 @05:16PM (#33280844)
A finite number of such museum pieces are necessary, and a 386 from 1992 provides little insight.
Re:OpenBSD 7.2 by johnklos on Friday October 21, 2022 @02:10PM (#33291171)
But that's not how it works. Nothing is frozen in time. NetBSD 10 isn't functionally frozen compared with NetBSD 1.4 on mac68k because mac68k hardware hasn't changed since back then.

"PC" means personal computer, and the term existed long before the IBM PC, but the term is being used here to refer to the i8086, x86 and amd64 generic platforms. The fact that there's tons of overlap from the original IBM PC with an i8088 to a Compaq 386, then between the i80386 and a PCI Pentium, then more overlap from the Pentium to the Core2Duo, then to a modern UEFI multi-core CPU, means that if people just say, "ISA is dead, so let's rip it out" would lead to a world of pain, unless you want to drop support for every x86 in the world that doesn't use UEFI.

There are lots of people who want to do exactly that, but why? They very untechnically say there's "technical debt", say stupid things like, "people have to spend time supporting that" when open source is volunteer and most code written well will just continue to compile and run well.

Most people forget that the rest of the world that has less money has our leftovers, so some gatekeeper wanting to desupport older hardware he doesn't have WILL affect others. If there's no good technical reason to take it out, don't.

Running on older hardware quickly points out performance regressions. Running on alternate architectures points out issues like bad stack alignment assumptions, endian assumptions or bad word size assumptions. Running on systems with less memory brings light to software that's using too much memory. All of these things benefit someone, and it's pretty shitty to say that people who're less well off should be out of luck because certain people don't want to be told they should code with less assumptions and/or should care when they're told there's something wrong with their code. It happens more than you realize.

But even if people want a "financial" justification for everything, all of those benefits of testing on older hardware help with making sure a system is robust and runs well even on resource constrained embedded platforms. So there's that.

It's funny how some people will scream about not wanting to keep support for hardware less fortunate people have, but will shut up when someone mentions that the same support is important for embedded use.

Re:OpenBSD 7.2 by nix23 on Sunday October 23, 2022 @07:34AM (#33306147)
You are so right with regression and slow sofware. Tryd to install rhel9 on a t61p from 2009. Gnome alone used half the vram around 130mb. And was slow as hell. Git is fast? Ever tryd to use it with 3gb of ram and a laptop hardisk? Switching branch on a linux repo took 4 minutes. I then converted the repo to a bitkeeper one (took about a week), changed to freebsd and the laptop was usable again...with i3 the nvidia drivers and bitkeeper. I really think dev's should test resonable sofware on a 2g raspberry or something like that regularly.
Re:OpenBSD 7.2 by johnklos on Friday October 21, 2022 @02:18PM (#33291282)
I don't know specifically why OpenBSD dropped support, but NetBSD dropped i80386 support after NetBSD 4 because gcc dropped i80386 support. So it is, in fact, relevant because OpenBSD would've had to have maintained an older gcc just for i80386 if they wanted to continue to support it.
Re:OpenBSD 7.2 by bombcar on Thursday October 20, 2022 @07:36PM (#33282280)
> In 2014, Rochester Electronics re-established manufacturing capability for the 68020 microprocessor and it is still available today.

That might be why it's still supported.

Re:OpenBSD 7.2 by badsectoracula on Thursday October 20, 2022 @12:35PM (#33277164)
This is something i always felt was lost with what seems to be "commercialization of free software" - software doing things because it was technically possible regardless if that made commercial sense. Nowadays it seems most projects have commercial interests (or even if they don't they act like it) and processes that come against that, often ending up abandoning things because of usage metrics and agendas, as if they have some board of directors to please.
Re:OpenBSD 7.2 by amatecha on Thursday October 20, 2022 @02:08PM (#33278455)
Yeah it's one of the many reasons I use OpenBSD - I can actually use my old, perfectly-functional hardware from literally decades ago and still run the latest software with latest security features and frequent updates. On numerous architectures, too!
Re:OpenBSD 7.2 by mekster on Saturday October 22, 2022 @01:11AM (#33295806)
Or misallocation of limited resource.

Who is funding OpenBSD these days?

Re:OpenBSD 7.2 by ben_bai on Saturday October 22, 2022 @11:13AM (#33298939)
Development is done by volunteers, who of course can focus on their passion (i.e. https://twitter.com/ao_kenji).

As for funding essentials like electricity, network, hackathons, and unpleasant development work, that would be the OpenBSD foundation (http://www.openbsdfoundation.org/activities.html)

Re:OpenBSD 7.2 by mekster on Sunday October 23, 2022 @02:51AM (#33305089)
It's quite a question as how a team of very talented developers can keep on going with such little donation.

$87.5k in 2022?

That doesn't even pay for a single person after taking the rest of the expenses into account.

Do they all have other jobs and using their spare time to devote to such a serious project?

Re:OpenBSD 7.2 by ben_bai on Monday October 24, 2022 @05:13PM (#33322751)
> Do they all have other jobs and using their spare time to devote to such a serious project?

Yes, except when <daywork> is also OpenBSD related. But that has nothing to do with the foundation.

> $87.5k in 2022?

The year isn't over... and there should be some left from bygone years.

> That doesn't even pay for a single person after taking the rest of the expenses into account.

I'm not aware of a single full-time paid developer, by the OpenBSD foundation. It's more a gig thing. In addition for Hackathons the foundation pays for the venue and network, and the developers usually fly themselves in.

The foundation was founded b.c. the CD sales (back when there were still CDs sold) didn't even cover electricity and network costs of the main site anymore.

It's all done like in the good old days of Linux, before big business stepped in.