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Re:Bonfire – working to build safer, more open federated too... by the-printer on Thursday October 13, 2022 @11:32AM (#33192398)
There is a sort of “post-corporate Memphis” design style and marketing language that I’ve been paying more attention to for some time now. It discomforts me.
Re:Bonfire – working to build safer, more open federated too... by mkmk3 on Thursday October 13, 2022 @11:58AM (#33192799)
Why does it discomfort you? You think it's a poor aesthetic, or you just recognize it's associated with a product, or something else?
Re:Bonfire – working to build safer, more open federated too... by the-printer on Thursday October 13, 2022 @12:25PM (#33193182)
The aesthetic is poor IMO in the sense that it is hackneyed. I’m not too familiar with CSS frameworks to immediately point out bootstrap from tailwind from another, but we should all agree that there are groups of websites that use a common layout and visual style which leverages typefaces like Inter, or San Francisco, or other “Sweatpants Grotesks” (think of Helvetica in a pair of tapered sweatpants with grey new balances and an unbuttoned Cardigan waiting for his Tesla to charge).

I do immediately recognize that a product is being offered in some fashion, but it’s more about how it’s being offered, as if it is something ostensibly, potentially life-changing. I think there a few HN members who know that there are plenty of products shown on HN that use emotionally jarring language that dances around the fact that the product is something that functionally is not as enigmatic as it’s advertised.

There is plenty of something else mixed in there also, but if you can’t tell I’m working off of a hunch right now. I would need to sit down and do a concentrated analysis to get everything that I feel across to you, if I ever had the chance to do so.

Re:Bonfire – working to build safer, more open federated too... by bobsmith432 on Thursday October 13, 2022 @12:10PM (#33192965)
It is dystopian, lacking of soul, and created to be interchangeable and and indistinguishable.
Re:Bonfire – working to build safer, more open federated too... by uoaei on Thursday October 13, 2022 @12:26PM (#33193197)
I think you are experiencing the limits of HTML-derived typesetting. This seems (empirically) to be a happy medium between effort and glamour for a lot of designers.

As a personal sidenote: I quite like the woodcut aesthetic generally and the design shift combined with the evocative imagery does more for me than the typical Meta- or Google-style branding.

Re:Bonfire – working to build safer, more open federated too... by rambambram on Thursday October 13, 2022 @11:44AM (#33192569)
I'm curious what you are up to. Care to tell some more?
Re:Bonfire – working to build safer, more open federated too... by the-printer on Thursday October 13, 2022 @12:33PM (#33193315)
I suspect that there is a sort of “design language” that more or less unabashedly targets the psycho-social state that many millennials (and perhaps even more youthful Gen Z and Boomer crowds; granted my understanding of how “generations” work isn’t a great) feel about the world.

I shouldn’t have to to think about dopamine and capitalism when I’m looking for a social network; on the other hand I do, kind of, but being introduced to software or a service shouldn’t be presented as such an emotional experience as I think it is.

Re:Bonfire – working to build safer, more open federated too... by ElevenLathe on Thursday October 13, 2022 @12:52PM (#33193570)
Do you also feel that other types of art (movies, music, architecture, video games, etc) "shouldn’t be presented as such an emotional experience"? If not, can you unpack why you think software should be treated differently? I'm not trying to be combative, just to understand.
Re:Bonfire – working to build safer, more open federated too... by the-printer on Thursday October 13, 2022 @01:25PM (#33193984)
That’s a good question and it helps me think my way through how Bonfire (at least it’s website) makes me feel.

I have long divorced myself from the consumption of film, games and music; so when it’s understood that without the presentation of an emotional experience the appeal of these three things would effectively be neutralized, I’m fine with that.

My observations are less targeted at software as an art form. I think it’s more about how it’s being marketed and what the effectiveness of a software’s marketing suggests about its targeted audience.

I would be more interested in Bonfire if they had a plain web page that just said for example, “Bonfire is a social networking service that can communicate with the ActivityPub protocol and does X, Y, Z and we are working on W. We named it Bonfire because bonfires are like quaint parties but with a raging flame in the middle of it.”

To summarize, maybe I prefer certain software that advertises itself plainly by its merits than…I guess more “psycho-social” sort of attributes?

Re:Bonfire – working to build safer, more open federated too... by ElevenLathe on Thursday October 13, 2022 @01:54PM (#33194305)
Interesting, I guess I can understand that approach for non-media-like software (not a great coining, but I mean things like operating system kernels, DBMS, batch accounting jobs, etc.).

That said, I don't see the point of divorcing media-like software (by which I mean at least video games and social media, like Bonfire, and possibly other types of software) from its emotional content. Just as the entire point of a movie or a record is basically only its emotional content, the entire point of using social media software is the emotional content of the interactions with others, right? And, if the emotion is the point of the software, why is it out of bounds to advertise it with that slant? Movie trailers and novel jackets are entirely emotional in their language. Are those somehow bad or immoral?

Or are you simply saying that emotional marketing of software isn't to your personal taste?

Re:Bonfire – working to build safer, more open federated too... by the-printer on Thursday October 13, 2022 @02:16PM (#33194521)
You’re pretty good at this. To chalk it up to personal taste almost undermines the deeper issues I want to bring up in regard to social media software, like how we’re doing so beautifully right now.

Perhaps it’s out of bounds because it’s unrealistic. A social network is neither film nor novel. Maybe the issue is that we are talking about how software appeals emotionally to real people where they will engage in real communications with real consequences with the emotional appeal of movie trailers, video games and novels.

Ironically the tone that the advertisement of Bonfire for example reminds me of is reminiscent of those fake ads from games like Fallout 3 or Bioshock. They’re almost employing the exact sort of rhetoric that people who try to make a world a better place before shoving everyone down tubes beneath the ocean and sticking needles in their arm use.

Is it fair when a social network like Gab or Truth Social behaves the same way?

Or is software with contrived emotional slants only acceptable when it appeals to your own personal views?

Re:Bonfire – working to build safer, more open federated too... by ElevenLathe on Thursday October 13, 2022 @02:47PM (#33194869)
I guess I agree that social media apps are in principle very different from works of legacy media like movies or novels. Maybe this means we need to regulate the kinds of advertising they can do (as with cigarette ad regulation), but I kind of doubt that the specific tone of the Bonfire landing page is going to have a big impact on its adoption, which will presumably be socially-driven ("I want to see my friends' posts, and want them to see mine") like all similar apps have been.
Re:Bonfire – working to build safer, more open federated too... by rambambram on Thursday October 13, 2022 @04:03PM (#33195835)
> Just as the entire point of a movie or a record is basically only its emotional content, the entire point of using social media software is the emotional content of the interactions with others, right?

Movies and social interactions carry emotions. Social media can (should?) carry social interactions, but why should social media itself be the source of emotions? Can it not be neutral in emotions and 'just' carry social interactions with emotions?

Re:Bonfire – working to build safer, more open federated too... by ElevenLathe on Friday October 14, 2022 @09:07AM (#33203012)
Certainly this might be a design goal of some social media apps, but IMO it definitionally cannot ever really be achieved. The software will put (some hard, some soft) limits on the kinds of things that will be posted, and the kinds of posts that will be seen. These choices will affect the emotional tenor of the experience of using it in a very directly McLuhan-y way.

The closest thing we have to a neutral "common carrier" in social media -- if we stretch the definition of social media -- is probably email, but even the choices made there over its decades-long rollout have emotional consequences. Furthermore, the emotional content of checking my inbox on my phone in the waiting room at the tire shop is different than blasting through it with mutt on my Ubuntu desktop, and is different again when I log into my webmail quick on my parents' elderly Dell desktop.

IMO if we try to pretend that there is a clear separation between the medium and the message, then in using these apps we open ourselves up to an even deeper level of emotional manipulation than using them with that truth in mind.

Re:Bonfire – working to build safer, more open federated too... by rambambram on Friday October 14, 2022 @12:20PM (#33205542)
> The software will put (some hard, some soft) limits on the kinds of things that will be posted, and the kinds of posts that will be seen. These choices will affect the emotional tenor of the experience of using it in a very directly McLuhan-y way.

True. Being neutral is a nice goal, but unachievable. Every choice has a color, some dull, some bright, but colored nonetheless.

Re:Bonfire – working to build safer, more open federated too... by MichaelCollins on Thursday October 13, 2022 @02:41PM (#33194807)
> I suspect that there is a sort of “design language” that more or less unabashedly targets the psycho-social state that many millennials (and perhaps even more youthful Gen Z and Boomer crowds;

Antidepressants advertised using solarpunk cartoons of diverse people growing organic produce in a city park with wind turbines in the background. Everybody dressed in pastel colors, while the plants are neon green.

Re:Bonfire – working to build safer, more open federated too... by rambambram on Thursday October 13, 2022 @03:56PM (#33195750)
I think I feel what you mean.

> being introduced to software or a service shouldn’t be presented as such an emotional experience as I think it is.

I found/experienced this when I was writing my own texts/content for a project/startup of mine. There was something pulling on me to write in a more emotional tone and I had to actively cut it back and get more to the point, just call it what it is. A good example is the first sentence of this paragraph; the word before the slash is what I think and the word after the slash is what I initially wrote down. I didn't "found" anything, I had to "experience" it. It's not a "project", but a "startup". I guess I'm influenced by western culture in general and HN-like culture specifically.

Is this also what you mean? Am I close? I guess I feel what you mean, but it's hard to put it into words.

Re:Bonfire – working to build safer, more open federated too... by the-printer on Thursday October 13, 2022 @09:21PM (#33198598)
I understand what you’re saying and I could see how what your describing can be taken as a derivative effect from what I’ve been describing. I myself lack the proper words to explain it all. It’s just a very visceral reaction.

I’m beginning to feel like the way that the Western world expresses itself is at its hyperbolic peak and it’s exposing a lot of our insecurities.

Re:Bonfire – working to build safer, more open federated too... by rambambram on Friday October 14, 2022 @10:37AM (#33204105)
When I have these visceral reactions to things alike, I found out Venkatesh Rao is already busy figuring them out and trying to put it in words. Usually successfully, if you ask me.
Re:Bonfire – working to build safer, more open federated too... by CharlesW on Thursday October 13, 2022 @11:53AM (#33192717)
"Corporate Memphis"¹ refers to a style of art. I don't quite see how the woodcut-style images used on this site would be considered a descendant of that.

¹ https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Corporate_Memphis

Re:Bonfire – working to build safer, more open federated too... by the-printer on Thursday October 13, 2022 @12:14PM (#33193023)
My interpretation of “Post-corporate Memphis” basically involves everything about corporate Memphis minus the imagery. It’s more about how the style is conveyed without the use of that sort of art work.
Re:Bonfire – working to build safer, more open federated too... by rambambram on Thursday October 13, 2022 @03:49PM (#33195677)
Ah, clear now. I think it's in the wording then, and some emoji's here and there.
Re:Bonfire – working to build safer, more open federated too... by yamtaddle on Thursday October 13, 2022 @02:04PM (#33194401)
All the animals-doing-human-stuff art made me think of how popular alt-social-networks are with the furry community.