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Re: It's Your Choice, Europe: Rebel Against the Banks or A... by toyg on Tuesday December 06, 2011 @03:51AM (#3318577)
Basically, yes. US and UK have central banks who will underwrite illogical levels of debt while (supposedly) maintaining a certain level of credibility; the EU has a galaxy of central banks who, individually, cannot do that any more, and a central bank which is not allowed to even try.

I don't like to say this, but the only logical solution is the one put forward (half-heartedly) by Sarkozy: let the ECB be the European FED, a proper central bank with full powers at European level, so that debt can be underwritten by Europe as a whole. The collective credibility of Europe as a huge market and productive force is unquestionable, so this would stop speculative moves and stabilize the system.

Unfortunately, Germany is currently led by a chancellor who thinks she's running a Bavarian village, and would rather try to save her cows into a "safe barn" than to stop the avalanche from getting into the valley in the first place. This makes it easy for US and UK media to fuel doubt in the Euro, indirectly boosting their own currencies and helping themselves to artificially-low borrowing rates.

And I say that as a UK citizen who will eventually benefit from this state of things (through increased public investment, or rather less ferocious cuts by the bunch of aristos currently running the show over here).

Re: It's Your Choice, Europe: Rebel Against the Banks or A... by roel_v on Tuesday December 06, 2011 @07:22AM (#3319011)
What Merkel is doing, and very good at that, is making sure that now, now that other countries are required to play ball, force fiscal discipline on those countries who think it's not necessary. If Merkel were to support e.g. Euro bonds without at the same time making sure there is a binding mechanisms to keep countries in check in the future, then the countries in the South would in effect be bailed out by the Northern ones and they'd continue as they've always done (because of political pressures from the voters) and we'd be back where we are now in 10 or 15 years. Merkel is using the leverage she has now to ensure that there will be accountability and binding fiscal targets for Member States.

She's certainly not taking the easy route, but it's the right route nonetheless.

Re: It's Your Choice, Europe: Rebel Against the Banks or A... by toyg on Tuesday December 06, 2011 @10:39AM (#3319620)
We've heard all this before, with the Maastricht treaty and the fixed deficit/GDP ratio imposed by Germany in the 90s. The result? Whenever France and Germany felt like ignoring the rules ("because of political pressure from the voters"? oh no, northerners are so virtuous, they'd NEVER do that, would they?)... they did just that, invalidating them for everyone else.

It's all posturing. We will be back to this in 10 or 15 years regardless of any "rule" imposed now by Germany, unless we switch to superpower-mode and let the ECB play on the same level with the Yankees and the Chinese. The current agreement takes powers from individual banks but then it doesn't give them to a new subject; a huge macroeconomic power is kept hostage to the lie that the EU is not a unified body when, for all intents and purposes, it will have to be if it wants to survive.

Otherwise we might as well go back to our little villages and watch them being crushed one after the other. Merkel might keep enjoying her cows a couple of years more than the others, full of her righteous fiscal discipline, and eventually she'll be bought off by the Chinese like everyone else.

Re: It's Your Choice, Europe: Rebel Against the Banks or A... by roel_v on Wednesday December 07, 2011 @03:32AM (#3323023)
What are you talking about? The whole problem is that the Maastricht treaty didn't contain binding fiscal controls, and the requirements of unanimity for many decisions mean that, in practice, they're useless.

You seem to have a bone to pick with Germany and France (and I assume with all the original 6 EEC members) , but the fact of the matter is that they (some more than others coughItaly,Belgiumcough) at least managed to grow slow enough to make things not quite as unsustainable, unlike the more recent members who saw the advantages that the EEC member got out of the union but who weren't, let's be honest here, politically and economically mature enough to be in the same league as the others. It's not about 'oh but they did it as well!' - some could afford it, others couldn't, and shouldn't have. And it's their responsibility, and all this whining and blaming others now just shows their immaturity and unwillingness to take the sour with the sweet. (i.e., when my neighbor makes more money than I do and buys a BMW, and I buy one too and it's repo'd because I can't afford it, do I have a valid defense in saying 'oh but he bought one too?' Of course not).

(btw, I'm not sure how you can call 'fiscal discipline' 'righteous'. It gives off the impression that you have no rational understanding of the situation and just 'feel' that things should be in one way or another, completely disregarding objective reality.)

Re: It's Your Choice, Europe: Rebel Against the Banks or A... by nakkiel on Tuesday December 06, 2011 @04:09AM (#3318609)
My opinion, exactly. I'm slightly less harsh regarding Germany though.

The biggest problem of Europe is probably that it's unfinished. Now, its institutions should be completed quickly to prevent further degradation of the situation on the markets (or, let's hope an improvement) but that's going to be very difficult.

I'm also concerned that, because of the current situation, the UK will never be willing stand at the core of Europe. And in my opinion, it's very much needed.

Re: It's Your Choice, Europe: Rebel Against the Banks or A... by non123 on Tuesday December 06, 2011 @06:00AM (#3318819)
I rather not have the UK as part of the core of Europe. They have a very original idea of what it means to be in the EU. Treaties, policies, this and that for everybody else but I'm going to opt out.

Thank you, but no thank you.

Re: It's Your Choice, Europe: Rebel Against the Banks or A... by toyg on Tuesday December 06, 2011 @06:41AM (#3318921)
Quoting Sir Humphrey: "Britain has had the same foreign policy objective for at least the last five hundred years: to create a disunited Europe. In that cause we have fought with the Dutch against the Spanish, with the Germans against the French, with the French and Italians against the Germans, and with the French against the Germans and Italians. Divide and rule, you see. Why should we change now, when it's worked so well?"
Re: It's Your Choice, Europe: Rebel Against the Banks or A... by toyg on Tuesday December 06, 2011 @11:24AM (#3319771)
Re: It's Your Choice, Europe: Rebel Against the Banks or A... by peteretep on Tuesday December 06, 2011 @06:51AM (#3318937)
"to keep the Russians out, the Americans in, and the Germans down"

No wait, that was NATO...