News for hackers. Stuff that matters.
Re:“Women are wonderful” effect by cochne on Wednesday October 12, 2022 @10:51AM (#33177825)
Yes, the association of men with intelligence more often than women would be benevolent sexism. I don't understand the issue you have with the terminology. Benevolent doesn't mean morally good here, it just means the person exhibiting the bias is assigning a positive attribute rather than negative. On the other hand, "women are dumber than men" would be hostile sexism. Yes, they are just different ways of saying the same thing, but they are framed differently.
Re:“Women are wonderful” effect by Veen on Wednesday October 12, 2022 @11:28AM (#33178414)
The problem is that the results of this study aren't benevolent from the perspective of men.
Re:“Women are wonderful” effect by SketchySeaBeast on Wednesday October 12, 2022 @11:56AM (#33178879)
> Benevolent doesn't mean morally good here, it just means the person exhibiting the bias is assigning a positive attribute rather than negative.

It's just like the concept of positive punishment. You can have positive punishment by adding a consequence (ie. an electric shock) and negative punishment by removing but it's still punishment despite being labelled "positive".

Re:“Women are wonderful” effect by Retric on Wednesday October 12, 2022 @12:09PM (#33179071)
What’s the actual difference between believing women are more X vs men are more !X? Presumably someone would believe one believes the other.
Re:“Women are wonderful” effect by cochne on Wednesday October 12, 2022 @02:28PM (#33181010)
As I said in my comment, they are more or less equivalent as statements of fact, but different in how the fact is framed. Framing, or the context in which you state a fact, matters.
Re:“Women are wonderful” effect by Retric on Wednesday October 12, 2022 @06:09PM (#33184269)
I don’t see how framing a belief matters. People will interchangeably flip the context simply based on the subject.
Re:“Women are wonderful” effect by mhuffman on Wednesday October 12, 2022 @07:15PM (#33185047)
Framing a belief can matter when it is first presented to a person. For example think about the phrases "reproductive rights" vs. "baby killing" or "estate tax" vs. "death tax". If you are first being introduced to these concepts, it matters how it is framed to you when you first start forming your opinions or beliefs about the idea.
Re:“Women are wonderful” effect by Retric on Thursday October 13, 2022 @04:30AM (#33188616)
I don’t see a difference in those names.

Some people get seriously upset with the “pro life” movement and others the “pro choice” because labeling doesn’t actually change anything.

The only impact from a new political spin is when I have no idea what people are talking about.

Re:“Women are wonderful” effect by mhuffman on Thursday October 13, 2022 @06:00AM (#33189148)
>I don’t see a difference in those names.

I suspect that is because you already have a belief about them and can use that belief to make an informed interrogation of the ideas at hand.

If, on the other hand, as I argued above you did not have a belief yet about an idea, that would not be the case and how it is framed to you would matter. I will give two contrived examples to show my point.

A 7-8 year old little girl is told by her (progressive) mother that "reproductive rights" are important to her and that abortion is part of that and they should fight for it to protect those rights related to her body.

vs.

A 7-8 year old little girl is told by her (conservative) mother that abortion is literally people "killing babies" and they should fight against it to protect the innocent babies.

The way those were framed (even though, I agree with you they are talking about the same concept at the end of the day) would obviously make a big difference to the little girl first hearing about this.

Re:“Women are wonderful” effect by Retric on Thursday October 13, 2022 @09:55AM (#33190982)
Indoctrination isn’t people independently coming to their own options so the names are irrelevant. A 7-8 year old girl can feel equally strongly about red vs blue being a boys/girls color.

Culture is extremely adaptable with little boys being put into dresses less than a hundred years ago for practical reasons and pink being a manly color as a less overt reference to blood. That swap didn’t depend on some new name for dress and colors.

Re:“Women are wonderful” effect by tomp on Wednesday October 12, 2022 @01:03PM (#33179842)
So the same thing can be either good or evil, depending on how it’s framed?

Looks like your morality is all mixed up and prone to manipulation.

Re:“Women are wonderful” effect by SketchySeaBeast on Wednesday October 12, 2022 @01:08PM (#33179942)
You're missing the point, where benevolent doesn't equal good, but either way, yes, "good" or "evil" is relative.

Robin hood stealing from the rich to give to the poor - that's going to be seen one way or the other from the rich person being stolen from vs the poor person being given to.

To have a moral system where defining something as unassailably good is also prone to manipulation - once you decide something is truly good you're more than willing to go to any end to defend or enact that good, including committing atrocities.

Some actions are harder to see as being subjective, sure, but there's always going to be gradients and perspectives.

Re:“Women are wonderful” effect by lucideer on Wednesday October 12, 2022 @01:06PM (#33179903)
> I don't understand the issue you have with the terminology. Benevolent doesn't mean morally good here

That's certainly not immediately clear. "Benevolent" is not a synonym of "positive", it's a synonym of "good". The former would apply in your definition but the latter very clearly doesn't.

----

Edit: I see from sibling commenters that this seems to be a compound term that makes up part of an established theoretical framework. That makes sense but I wouldn't assume everyone is automatically aware of that:

> Benevolent sexism represents evaluations of gender that may appear subjectively positive (subjective to the person who is evaluating), but are actually damaging to people and gender equality more broadly

It also doesn't redefine the word "benevolent" completely - in this context it just means "the misleading appearance of benevolence".

Re:“Women are wonderful” effect by bitti on Thursday October 13, 2022 @03:46AM (#33188358)
> Yes, they are just different ways of saying the same thing, but they are framed differently.

Here, I think, lies the problem. Trying to re-frame a negative idea as positive. Involuntary imported labor force instead of a slavery?