> They just couldn't wrap their heads around the idea that on the spreadsheet if you schedule someone on Friday until Midnight... starting them at Midnight on Saturday doesn't make a lot of sense / they would be working 20 hours in a row.

I started my career as tech support back in highschool. My boss told me this is illegal and stupid for my health when I said I'd like to work a shift similar to this once. I'm not sure of it's actually illegal, though.

> Perhaps they should all be required to go manage a McDonalds for a year or something?

Alas, I think McDonalds employees have enough to deal with; adding horrendous managers into the mix would just make their jobs more stressful lol

Honestly based on a lot of the information I have gathered and problems I have seen the problem is that the managers are subpar at managing and running things, as well as lacking leadership capabilities and that's what leads to a lot of the horrendous stories from employees.

I think it would be illegal in the UK/EU - you are required to have at least 11 hours rest in any 24 hour period, and only 8 hours of night work in any 24 hour period.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Working_Time_Directive_2003

In the UK is basically standard to sign away your rights from the working time directive with 99% of office jobs

When I worked in the UK (3 jobs over eight years) I was never asked to do that; the closest was that I was ask to sign as to whether the 48h/week limit would apply week-by-week, or averaged out over 17 weeks (as per the regulations).

I've worked a number of software roles (around 10 in the last 15 years) in the UK. Only been asked to sign away my working time directive once, and that was for an American owned company. I declined to do so, and still got the role.

> Perhaps they should all be required to go manage a McDonalds for a year or something?

I'm a middle aged man and I wish I could do a 3 month internship at a McDonalds. I'd probably learn a lot and RUN back to my current job.

In general, business types seem to think that all requirements are flexible. Granted, there can be benefits to that thinking but they apply it to laws and physics too.

Except when they come up with a deadline or their own requirements.

I have an undergraduate business degree. My favorite classes were:

- accounting. Seems like double entry accounting is posted here from time to time as something that would interest the readership here.

- linear programming - didn’t actually get this as part of my CS curriculum.

- game theory and Bayesian statistics - staples of HN readership

- entrepreneurship - taught how to fundraise and manage a startup. Probably like a theoretical YC

- marketing - an evergreen class that comes in handy no matter what I’m doing; selling yourself and your work is a life skill

- operations management and logistics - dovetails with linear programming

In all, I’m more than happy with the school I went to. It definitely fleshed out my more technical education in CS. I know not all programs are the same, and maybe many aren’t like the one I attended, but I wouldn’t write off all “business types” based on the (in many cases earned) stereotypes.

> - linear programming - didn’t actually get this as part of my CS curriculum.

Isn't this part of a standard Linear Algebra course?

Linear algebra was more like theory, while linear programming was more like applications. It involved teamwork, projects, case studies, and gaining competency using software solvers; whereas my linear algebra course was lecture/exam based, had no teamwork, and wasn't framed with a practical lens with an eye toward real-world applications and scenarios. I had a lot more to learn in linear programming after linear algebra.

Spot on. I have a CS undergrad and masters, and if I wanted to stay another semester would also have a minor in business. Accounting, finance, marketing, and economics have paid dividends in my career over and over.

Yes, I have an undergrad that hit financial markets and financial statement accounting analysis and an advanced degree in CS.

The dual experience is invaluable, especially for maintaining a base level of sanity in a business as a technical employee. Why things work how they do will make a lot more sense.

Are there any hard skills a manager should have that are not included in common sense?

I think for me the question is how these guys get out of these schools, with a masters, for a role that includes some consequential decisions, without common sense.

Obligatory Deadpool/Bill Murray reference: http://qahipster.weebly.com/uploads/8/1/4/4/8144013/common-s...

I think the conceit that exists in business schools today, and what riles up people too, is that managing people could be taught. This is why many case studies are performed in B-schools, so students can imbibe successful habits. But I have worked with successful and unsuccessful managers, and successful ones combine experience with creativity. You need both. And experience, or even creativity, cannot really be taught.

You would be shocked how many people lack what one would hope is common sense when it comes, especially, to things like shift scheduling. Even ones who've been on the other side of it and get promoted!

It seems it is not common sense after all. And no, most of it's not happening because of reasonable business trade-offs or tension between business and human needs, people are just weirdly bad at making sensible schedules. They'll produce these completely fucked-up schedules that someone with a little empathy and that aforementioned common-sense can fix in five minutes flat. It's baffling.

A mentor of mine who made MD (very senior) at a know place and a good MBA at a known school told me this:

Bob’s Business School of the South and Harvard teach basically the same thing.

You pay for the network of classmates largely.