I've reached a point where I don't think you should be looking for something you enjoy. I don't particularly enjoy programming. I didn't start programming because I think it's fun. I do it because it's satisfying. I like understanding and solving difficult problems. I like doing research. I like writing. I like working with others. Programming was one of a huge number of possibilities that I could've pursued with these characteristics, but life pushed me in that direction and that's where I ended up. I get to do the things I like to do, but the things I like to do aren't necessarily "programming".

There is a fundamental shift of perspective that I think is necessary for people to find work that will fulfill them. More important is to look at what things you enjoy, and then figuring out what exactly appeals to you, really understanding yourself and how you tick, and how that can be applied elsewhere.

I spent much of my childhood gaming (CS, Battlefield, Starcraft, Warcraft 3, Deus Ex, C&C RA2, Dune 2, etc.). It was fun, sure, and going by "look for something you enjoy", maybe I should've become a pro-gamer. But if I look at how I actually spent my time, there are much different conclusions to be drawn about what I like. I liked being in a team with a collective goal. I liked the communication (and arguing). I liked solving situational challenges. I liked being challenged. I liked researching strategies, techniques, and everything around metagaming (countless hours "wasted" on TeamLiquid). I liked learning new things and incrementally improving my skills. I liked documenting and explaining things. It's 100% clear how that translated in a career context, but at first glance, shooting people in CS was just "fun".

I have a hard time thinking of an activity that I find satisfying but don't enjoy.

Trying to find a bug for 8 hours isn't fun or enjoyable to me. But it is satisfying and I feel great afterwards and it's exactly what I want to be doing.

It feels like you're defining "fun" or "enjoyable" differently than most people would.

Most people don't find their "fun" activities enjoyable all the time. Running can be fun, but it also is tiring and sucks sometimes. Practicing a musical instrument isn't the most enjoyable, but playing in a band and nailing songs is. Lifting isn't "fun," but excelling at a sport is.

Point being that not liking the boring parts of an activity, but still finding the activity as a whole satisfying, is something that most people would consider to be an activity you enjoy.

You're not really disagreeing with me, but you're arguing with me. Maybe I'm not being clear enough. What we "enjoy" (however you might define it), or even what we're good at, is extremely malleable. Yet people try to find that one activity that magically clicks and that needs to then be their career. I learned to enjoy running, because it incorporates elements that appeal to me (incremental improvement, for example), but I fucking hated it when I started. That's how it is with a lot of things.

I agree with the majority of what you're saying. Knowing what you'll enjoy relies on enjoying the component parts of that activity. Finding new activities that you'll enjoy requires you to look at the reasons why you enjoy that activity at a granular level.

Where I disagree is the claim that you don't enjoy programming. If you enjoy most of the component parts of an activity, my claim is that you actually do enjoy that activity.

Let's take hiking as an example. I can claim that I don't actually like hiking, I just like being outside, being in the forest, and walking. Hiking is therefore just one of a multitude of activities that could meet those desires. However, because my "likes" comprise the vast majority of the appeal of hiking, it is fair to say that I actually do enjoy hiking.

Ultimately, this is a semantic distinction. My claim is that by the commonly used definition of an "enjoyable activity," I would classify programming as an activity that you at least moderately enjoy.

It can be the opposite as well. I liked programming when I started doing it, over 30 years ago now. I don't like doing it anymore, although I am "good at" doing it, and it's really the only skill I have that will earn me the income I want to have. I will happily abandon it the day I retire and at least right now I my first priority is going to be reducing the amount of computer technology in my life to the absolute minimum.

...people find running fun ?

I'm guessing your comment is tongue-in-cheek, but as someone who used to not like running, I'd like to share my experience.

What made it click for me is not pushing myself too hard. I used to run at an intensity I realize in retrospect I could just barely sustain. This worked, in that my fitness increased and I got faster, but it always felt horrible. This was the case when I ran alone, or with my partner - when we run together, we tend to subconsciously push each other to go a little faster.

Then, we started running with a much more extroverted friend who likes to talk a fair bit. This put a natural limit on the intensity, and apart from enjoying the socializing, I also felt physically better. It also worked fine for fitness, and I got a PR on a 10K race while training this way.

Now I find that even when I run on my own, I'm much better at finding a pace I can sustain comfortably, and I enjoy it!

As a casual runner, I'm very happy I've come to this realization, but I'm sure the experience is very different for someone who is either very unfit and finds any speed uncomfortable, or for someone who's training seriously and needs to push hard to attain their goals.

Okay but that's like 1% of programming

I would find satisfying shooting Putin, but I would not enjoy killing him.

I disagree with "practice makes perfect". You can keep practising something badly and you'll only get better at doing it badly. This can be seen everywhere. Second language speakers who have no interest in studying the language will continue to sound very non-native after decades of daily use. Musicians build bad habits that hold them back and take a long time to "unlearn". Programmers continue using the same old tools and techniques they learnt when they were students. You don't just get better by practising.

I don't buy your second language users example because I don't think that "use" necessarily equals "practice". It's usually easier to make major gains at the beginning of the learning journey, and things naturally plateau after a while, unless you put in more effort. Simply speaking the learned language at the level you have already reached will hardly improve your mastership (although I think it will minimally), you need to actually try to improve - which, to me, is the what practicing means.

That's kinda irrelevant tho ? You can practice with purpose yet still practice it badly.

You can also practice with purpose and get to a peak of your ability.

Yes! That is why deliberate practice requires some mentors or guiding factor. It's really hard to invest in deliberate pratice and most of us overlook it! When practicing quality > quantity.

I gave up a lot of hobbies because I didn't have mentor or guidance factor to help me get past the wall. You can only learn upto a certain point on your own. After that, it requires quite a lot of attention and focus to not suck.

Indeed "practice makes perfect" isn't enough.

But the context being "something you enjoy", being passionate about something usually comes with self-motivation to improve and become better at something, and usually one finds a way to get better.

The stagnation you mentioned is usually with people who aren't that passionate about the things they are practicing, or just using it as a means to some other ends.

This is where you stop doing mindlessly and analyze.