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Re:Overwatch 2 will require a phone number to play by akerl_ on Friday September 30, 2022 @02:49PM (#33038986)
It's not clear why having to log in to a company's servers makes something not a "game". Are MMORPGs not games?

The comment about broad appeal is also a bit confusing to me. Why do things stop being games because they're designed to be accessible to many people?

Re:Overwatch 2 will require a phone number to play by branon on Friday September 30, 2022 @03:01PM (#33039183)
It's not logging into a server (MMORPG-like) that kills it for me, it's the push to link the in-game identity with a real-life identifier. It's not (in an almost literal sense!) a game anymore at that point.

For the broad appeal bit, I was thinking tragedy of the commons. A critical mass of actors (good and bad alike) has got to be one of the main drivers behind such a decision. So I'm thinking the more popular a game gets, the higher the likelihood that drastic actions like this are taken, ostensibly to defend against some boogeyman or other.

Re:Overwatch 2 will require a phone number to play by akerl_ on Friday September 30, 2022 @03:24PM (#33039526)
I’m not sure what definition of game you’re using, where having to validate your account with a real life identifier (which feels vague, since basically every multiplayer platform already has accounts tied to email addresses, because of course they do) makes something “not a game anymore”. But that’s not the definition that I’m aware of in use anywhere else.
Re:Overwatch 2 will require a phone number to play by branon on Friday September 30, 2022 @03:31PM (#33039601)
Email addresses aren't real-life identifiers, although they could be used that way. And on the inverse, I can buy a burner phone with cash and defeat Blizzard's requirement easily.

But it's pretty clear what Blizzard is going for here, since we know their platform is competitive and thus harsher on individuals viewed as bad actors. Blizzard knows full well that most people signing up to play only have one phone number, which is most certainly a real-life identifier for those players.

My point is that if players feel compelled to self-censor their interactions online for fear of repercussions[0], then they are not playing a game. They are instead representing themselves as individuals on a social network with competitive/gamified attributes. Requiring phone numbers to play is just a method to gently reinforce this.

To each their own - this might be exactly the type of game you like to play. But it departs pretty strongly from the classical definition of "video game" that I grew up with.

[0] For example, your primary phone number being disallowed access to all Blizzard services. Maybe they go even further and request that 3rd party services ban you for off-platform violations. Moved this down to a footnote so as not to spread FUD, I'm sure they don't currently do this, nor do I expect them to. But cross-referencing phone numbers would make it very easy to start.

Re:Overwatch 2 will require a phone number to play by akerl_ on Friday September 30, 2022 @04:42PM (#33040532)
Overwatch’s only social features are in-game voice/text chat, whose purpose is primarily coordinating with your team.

If this helps censor the people who are interrupting the game to shout racist insults or read their manifestos, that seems like a win for gaming to me.

Putting something in a footnote doesn’t make it it FUD, for what it’s worth.

Re:Overwatch 2 will require a phone number to play by dbttdft on Friday September 30, 2022 @07:51PM (#33042208)
> that seems like a win for gaming to me

Well, it isn't. What people are saying in chat has no bearing on the quality of the game. I'm not even playing devil's advocate like you are doing in this sub thread either, I literally could not care what people say in game chats. I take more issue to this obnoxious, cancerous, USA opinion that someone saying the N-word is the end of the world and requires me as an innocent bystander to bear the costs (such as having to use phone identification to play a game). You see the problem is not being racist itself, but the "solutions" you people propose.

Re:Overwatch 2 will require a phone number to play by akerl_ on Friday September 30, 2022 @08:08PM (#33042344)
This doesn’t seem coherent. The team voice chat is used by players coordinating to play the game. If somebody is shouting nonsense into their mic, they’re interfering with people playing the game, which makes the game less fun. If they’re shouting slurs at other players, they’re making the game less fun for those people. And blizzard wants the game to be fun, as do I.
Re:Overwatch 2 will require a phone number to play by dbttdft on Friday September 30, 2022 @08:12PM (#33042380)
Why are you arguing like a lawyer instead of coming up with a valid point for me to rebuke? Obviously I was referring to just the general notion of people saying racist stuff in chat. It's no the end of the world when that happens.

Saying that you find the game less enjoyable when people say racist shit just makes you sound like an annoying person.

The fact that you brought up racism and then used this strawman of "game being disrupted" is actually hilarious and shows what a thin spine you have.

Re:Overwatch 2 will require a phone number to play by akerl_ on Friday September 30, 2022 @08:18PM (#33042418)
My point feels pretty clear: Blizzard is doing this to raise the effort required for people to evade bans by making new accounts. People get banned for cheating, for being disruptive in chat, or for throwing games on purpose. I support this decision by Blizzard, because those things make the game less fun to play.

No straw men here, and racism is only in the thread because it’s a common example of people being disruptive in chat.

Re:Overwatch 2 will require a phone number to play by dbttdft on Friday September 30, 2022 @08:35PM (#33042536)
Well congratulations, you prevented 0.01% of "bad things". I've been gaming for 20 years on competitive FPS. Cheating is a tiny issue. 99% of cheating reports are bogus.
Re:Overwatch 2 will require a phone number to play by ryz on Friday September 30, 2022 @09:22PM (#33042847)
not true. cheating is a HUGE issue in competitive games. call of duty also requires you to validate your phone number and they have a kernel-level anti-cheat called ricochet. games like tarkov are swarmed with chinese cheat accounts and undetectable radar cheats. there are monthly cheat subscription services where you pay hundreds of dollars for access to sophisticated aimbots, etc. counter-strike employs sophisticated frame-by-frame anti-cheat heuristics analyzing shot and input patterns, they have a system in place where good actors can review cases of alleged cheating (called overwatch) AND they ALSO require you to validate your phone number if you want to play comp matches. games like r6 siege and apex legend employ similar systems. stop pretending “cheating is a tiny issue”. either you don’t play competitive games as you claim or you have no idea what you are talking about.
Re:Overwatch 2 will require a phone number to play by dbttdft on Saturday October 01, 2022 @09:03AM (#33046298)
Cheating is a tiny issue as in, its still rare. It's more rare than bugs in your typical shoddy post-2000 game. Any competent gamedev can deter it easily. Since they are deterring it, its rare for you to encounter a cheater. Remember, we're primarily concerned about general games here, not specific high ranked matches. Those are the _only_ place that any sort of extra validation would even start to be acceptable.

All that matters for casual games is that the company actively does something to minimize cheating. Identity verification is not a way to do this as it is not an active measure. It just puts one hoop for people to jump through. More useful is to do typical statistical analysis as that will catch 99% of actual impactful cheating (subtle cheating doesn't matter much since the average player won't be able to tell the difference anyway) and rinse and repeat.

Nice job using in-kernel a/c to claim how advanced the problem is. When those came out 20 years ago, it was just a few small patches to bypass them. Even some of them were still only signature based so you could just change the signature of your cheat and bypass it. But I'll stop here since you don't seem to comprehend the concept of cat-and-mouse nor the fact that pursuing it to the end just makes the game unplayable for innocent players.

Yes, I know some games requires phone verification to play at all, and I'm against that. My initial reaction to this thread was "um we are just now caring about this? they're moving onto photo ID now, which creates real life fraud problems". Gee I can't wait until game devs start stealing my ID and the subsequent "fix" of using a trusted third party that's also abusive and blocks me from multiple games because they have monopoly, and has integration bugs causing the game not to work at all if I press the wrong button on their web page embedded into the game.

Re:Overwatch 2 will require a phone number to play by branon on Friday September 30, 2022 @06:30PM (#33041594)
I mean the real-world social aspect of the game - from eSports tournaments to casual/competitive play. Even the conversation we're having now. How others interpret gaming as a whole. A social system is created where only certain kinds of behavior is acceptable, and disputes are arbitrated by the platform-holder. When those disputes are won or lost, the platform-holder presumably will attempt to take action against individuals - not IP addresses, emails, or usernames.

We've already established that it's not really a game (seems more like a sport), so whether it's a win for video gaming or not is irrelevant to my thinking, though I do tend to agree with regards to the actual in-game communication mechanics.

Footnotes are used to call attention to idiosyncrasies in written communication so I used one here, similar to how I described another sentence of mine as sarcastic in an earlier comment - just trying to be fair :)

Re:Overwatch 2 will require a phone number to play by q-big on Friday September 30, 2022 @05:16PM (#33040913)
> If this helps censor the people who are interrupting the game to shout racist insults or read their manifestos, that seems like a win for gaming to me.

Why not let stupid people shout stupid things ...

Re:Overwatch 2 will require a phone number to play by akerl_ on Friday September 30, 2022 @05:36PM (#33041117)
Because it’s disruptive to the rest of us trying to play the game?
Re:Overwatch 2 will require a phone number to play by q-big on Friday September 30, 2022 @05:37PM (#33041131)
Come on: also in real life stupid people say stupid things all the time.
Re:Overwatch 2 will require a phone number to play by akerl_ on Friday September 30, 2022 @05:41PM (#33041168)
Yes. Is that relevant here?

In-game chat isn’t bound by any requirement to support everything that stupid people can do in real life.

Re:Overwatch 2 will require a phone number to play by q-big on Friday September 30, 2022 @05:58PM (#33041342)
> In-game chat isn’t bound by any requirement to support everything that stupid people can do in real life.

Do you seriously claim that "not preventing" already means "supporting"?!

Re:Overwatch 2 will require a phone number to play by akerl_ on Friday September 30, 2022 @06:15PM (#33041489)
To be hopefully crystal clear: Overwatch voice chat is a privately hosted service that’s built to be used by players during overwatch games. Blizzard moderates the content of that chat to remove disruptive content, where disruptive means “chat that makes people not enjoy playing overwatch”. In general, that’s people shouting slurs at their teammates or rambling about nonsense. Changes like the phone number requirement are part of their approach to expand the preemptive blocking of this activity. And I am fully in favor of them doing this, because it improves the quality of the game.
Re:Overwatch 2 will require a phone number to play by kowbell on Friday September 30, 2022 @03:23PM (#33039510)
> It's not (in an almost literal sense!) a game anymore at that point

I’m curious what your definition of a game is?

Re:Overwatch 2 will require a phone number to play by mechanical_bear on Friday September 30, 2022 @03:31PM (#33039616)
How is that not a game anymore?

It is certainly not a FUN game (cough Apex) when beset by cheaters constantly. I’ll gladly give up anonymity to make the game fun again.

Re:Overwatch 2 will require a phone number to play by inkywatcher on Saturday October 01, 2022 @01:13PM (#33048163)
In the case of Apex Legends, I think the experientially high incidence of cheaters and persistently active cheat manufacturers (as well as almost-cheats like using mouse and keyboard on consoles for superior aim assist) are both a compliment to the game and a side effect of battle royales. Larger lobbies and survival of the fittest equates to a higher likelihood of encountering the cheaters that exist. Even if less than 1% of players cheat, it is quite possible to encounter one during an evening of play. And it sometimes seems like the cheating comes in waves, where a new one will be wildly popular for a while before the team in charge of it catches on.

All that is to say, additional identifiers might be against the hacker ethos, but hopefully not the gamer ethos.

Re:Overwatch 2 will require a phone number to play by mixedCase on Friday September 30, 2022 @04:19PM (#33040225)
I'm sorry but this doesn't make any sense to me. Doubly so when, in this case, the goal is to identify you as a person by the platform holder who needs to validate to the best of their ability that you're not a ban-evading cheater ruining other people's games. You are not personally identifying yourself to other players.
Re:Overwatch 2 will require a phone number to play by branon on Friday September 30, 2022 @04:29PM (#33040363)
No, you have it exactly right. I posit that a service run by a platform-holder who has a legitimate need to validate players' identity in this manner, for these reasons, is not quite the same as the video games (even the multiplayer ones) which have existed up until now. They have built something very different. And it's great! I just think it's also important to discuss what it really is, why, and the current+future implications.

I feel there should be a new term to describe this type of game. Up until now "eSports" has been used but that seems passe. Metagame perhaps? Might have sounded dumb a few years ago, but there's strong precedent now :P

Re:Overwatch 2 will require a phone number to play by akerl_ on Friday September 30, 2022 @04:40PM (#33040513)
How about we just call it a game? It’s not clear why we’d need to find a new term because you have a nostalgia for games based on their login requirements.
Re:Overwatch 2 will require a phone number to play by mistrial9 on Friday September 30, 2022 @03:17PM (#33039430)
taking notes for Metaverse apps here
Re:Overwatch 2 will require a phone number to play by dbttdft on Friday September 30, 2022 @07:44PM (#33042173)
> Are MMORPGs not games?

Yes. I've never played one, but from what I can tell it's like a forum where you go on with an identity and form clubs with people and chat about stuff, then you play some wonky subgame for 1 minute in that 3 hour session, then you go press a bunch of buttons to gamble for virtual prizes, etc.

Re:Overwatch 2 will require a phone number to play by llanowarelves on Saturday October 01, 2022 @01:30AM (#33044159)
I upvoted you and here's why.

I've played lots of MMOs when I was younger and it's always the same: the "game" doesnt really start until you hit the "endgame" (usually near max level with decent gear).

Until that point, you are often grinding and doing daily events, like a job.

And we often joke that once we get there: "Finally, I get to play the game".

Then there's fear of missing out with seasonal or other limited-time awards etc. which " forces" you to play when you don't want to.

Jonathan Blow has written about why this isn't fun game design.

And those are some reasons why despite having played a lot of these, I agree with the pithy comment that they aren't games.

Re:Overwatch 2 will require a phone number to play by dbttdft on Saturday October 01, 2022 @09:14AM (#33046365)
Yeah I was excited about the idea of MMO back in 2000 when my friends told me about one they played. Then realized they're all scams (and do not even have any MMO element; You can't actually have a bunch of players fighting and when you do it just lags and bugs) and dodged that bullet.
Re:Overwatch 2 will require a phone number to play by akerl_ on Friday September 30, 2022 @08:03PM (#33042299)
Do… you know what an MMORPG is?

Some hints: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Massively_multiplayer_online...

Re:Overwatch 2 will require a phone number to play by dbttdft on Friday September 30, 2022 @08:09PM (#33042357)
Yeah, the subgame is the PVP. But that's rare and requires players to play for thousands of hours to get to whatever level and probably is like an RPG but with worse mechanics because the devs spend most of their time adding new items and currencies and other things peripheral to the game

But thanks for the downvote, you really got me there.