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Re:Volvo is using Rust for its in-vehicle software by ParetoOptimal on Saturday September 24, 2022 @12:48PM (#32964369)
> Choice of programming language is the least of their concerns, that isn't the source of their code quality issues.

I'm curious to see if the Rust programmers affect the organizations as well by introducing unions to combat this kind if thing.

On another note I disagree that language will have no meanigful effect, even in a hostile environment such as this.

Re:Volvo is using Rust for its in-vehicle software by marvinvz on Saturday September 24, 2022 @05:18PM (#32966601)
German car manufacturers already have unions. Unions don't help against overmanagment and leadership without technical (digital) understanding. "Creative" parts of the company are often praised (while mostly badly stealing ideas from the competition) while devs are seen as a "resource". Experts usually get asked AFTER the project is on fire or already crisp.
Re:Volvo is using Rust for its in-vehicle software by jandrewrogers on Saturday September 24, 2022 @03:23PM (#32965777)
A substantial amount of this development is already done in managed/safe languages when possible. In many cases, the software developers are represented by a works council or similar. These are generally capable and skilled developers that want to do a good job, not half-literate code monkeys slinging bad C in a sweatshop.

Whatever ethos you imagine Rust developers uniquely have, it doesn't address any of the constraints and incentives that are creating the code quality problems in automotive. Even the best developers in the world would have a difficult time producing a quality product in that environment.

Re:Volvo is using Rust for its in-vehicle software by ParetoOptimal on Saturday September 24, 2022 @04:47PM (#32966425)
> Whatever ethos you imagine Rust developers uniquely have

They tend to seem more of the type to go on strike, form a union, or leave a job because of political views.

> Even the best developers in the world would have a difficult time producing a quality product in that environment.

Right, i'm saying I think at least more experienced rust developers would refuse to work in that environment.

They seem like they would risk more of their own well-being for ethical reasons, for better or worse.

I suppose if Volvo started depending on highly socially conscious domain experts and had a choice between changing working conditions and ditching rust though, they'd change the latter.

I'm happy to be proven wrong, but experienced C programmers seem to be more conservative "don't mix politics and programming" types.

Re:Volvo is using Rust for its in-vehicle software by dmitriid on Saturday September 24, 2022 @05:49PM (#32966835)
> I suppose if Volvo started depending on highly socially conscious domain experts

It's amazing that you're saying all that and the same time completely oblivious to the fact that Volvo is in Sweden. Which has unions, labor protection, amazing working conditions etc. etc.

The reason Volvo is doing what it's doing is due to Volvo's commitment to safety [1] and not because of some mythical exclusively social ethos of some programmers.

[1] https://www.volvogroup.com/en/about-us/traffic-safety/safety...

Re:Volvo is using Rust for its in-vehicle software by pjmlp on Sunday September 25, 2022 @04:26AM (#32969809)
Maybe in US, in Europe unions tend to be a common thing.
Re:Volvo is using Rust for its in-vehicle software by pjmlp on Sunday September 25, 2022 @04:24AM (#32969805)
In Germany we already have unions, including the software development, as the unions are traversal to the industry regardless of the role each employee has on the building.
Re:Volvo is using Rust for its in-vehicle software by JanisErdmanis on Saturday September 24, 2022 @08:05PM (#32967735)
I think you are on something. Tangentially I used to sit next to a colleague who was responsible for research software development in Python. The amount of necessary coordination in developing such software made the dev mental health to suffer. In contrast in Julia which I was already using at the time development is more autonomous as things just work together.