News for hackers. Stuff that matters.
Re:Meta and Google are cutting staff by acchow on Wednesday September 21, 2022 @03:52PM (#32930612)
> They will refute at all cost that this is stack ranking

Graded in the context of peers’ performance does not imply that they sort employees by performance.

Re:Meta and Google are cutting staff by marcosdumay on Wednesday September 21, 2022 @04:57PM (#32931417)
Interesting. I can't find a way to read "graded in the context of peers" that doesn't parse into exactly the same concept as "sort employees by performance". AFAIK, it's not something you can interpret as, those are literally synonyms.

But well, stack ranking is not only about sorting (the name is a lie), it's about placing people in fixed sized cohorts. The real question is if there is a limitation on the number of raises or a minimum on the number of people treated as "low performant".

Re:Meta and Google are cutting staff by strulovich on Wednesday September 21, 2022 @05:30PM (#32931762)
The cohorts at Meta are not fixed size (at least not at the team level).

You do get to see the average size of cohorts, and you will need to explain why your team doesn’t meet them - for example if the entire team project is going exceedingly well, or the team is really made out if a lot of extraordinarily talented people - then you can argue why you have more than the average rate of excellent rankings.

Re:Meta and Google are cutting staff by marcosdumay on Wednesday September 21, 2022 @05:39PM (#32931865)
Hum... To me that sounds like the cohorts have fixed sizes, but the top management will break the rules for their friends.

Anyway, even if it honestly for "extraordinarily talented" people, that's still stupid stack-ranking.

Re:Meta and Google are cutting staff by strulovich on Wednesday September 21, 2022 @11:01PM (#32934363)
Then you misunderstood.

The same you’d rank a person’s work, you would rank a team or org’s work.

If that team is doing really well, it’s likely they will have a distribution of higher rankings than the average. If they’re doing really bad, it can be the opposite.

The point is that if you finished ranking some team and your rankings are higher than average, you need to have a reason why.

What makes a ranking into a stack ranking?

Re:Meta and Google are cutting staff by fnordpiglet on Wednesday September 21, 2022 @05:55PM (#32932062)
That’s because once you have a score for each employee you already have a sort button in excel. Who wouldn’t?
Re:Meta and Google are cutting staff by Infinitesimus on Wednesday September 21, 2022 @04:03PM (#32930768)
What does sorting by performance look like to you?

The curve determines rating and compensation, influences promotion decisions, projects people get to work on and what opportunities come their way. The seems like a sort to me given that budget and project opportunities are fixed in many places.

Re:Meta and Google are cutting staff by nightpool on Wednesday September 21, 2022 @04:13PM (#32930909)
The key component of stack ranking / sorting by performance is that there's no absolute measure of your contribution, only a relative measure by which you have to outcompete everyone else in your team/department. If you fire your lowest 15% of engineers—no matter how good they are on an absolute level—that's a stack ranking system. It's a horrifying Red Queen's Race that punishes high-quality teams. I'm not necessarily saying that Meta's system is good, but at least it's not that.

EDIT: It sounds like at least some people are claiming that Meta has an internal policy that X% of your engineers under you are supposed to be given "Meets Most Expectations" ratings, which would also be pretty close to stack ranking (if at least allowing for some management leniency) https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=32930370

Re:Meta and Google are cutting staff by UncleMeat on Wednesday September 21, 2022 @07:07PM (#32932797)
Sort of. I'm at Google, not Meta, but the same "we have an expected distribution of ratings" thing exists here and it causes the same confusion.

With large enough populations you see fairly consistent statistical information across time. Little fluctuations even out. So at org sizes of, say, 500 people you'll see pretty consistent ratings distributions between cycles. This is where you get the "we have a roughly expected ratings distribution." If you've deviated far from this then it means either that your org is training people on the evaluation process incorrectly or there is some other cause of a weird distribution. When something doesn't match, people simply investigate for an alternative solution.

What people seem to be frightened of is when somebody says to a manager of 10 people "hey you've got too many high ratings, drop some." Google and Meta are massive companies so I suspect that this happens somewhere but I've never even got the scent of this happening from my position at Google. I've had cycles where 100% of my team was in the top 20% of ratings without anybody raising an eyebrow.

Re:Meta and Google are cutting staff by rnk on Wednesday September 21, 2022 @09:45PM (#32933928)
It used to happen at Microsoft back in the day. I was in SQL Server and we openly talked about this happening. They literally told us being in a great, high functioning org like sql server had a certain penalty. Then top management said don't worry, we got extra money for our people. It was kind of obviously silly.

On stack ranking & the penalty for being in a great team - yes, also happened, being in a great team but you still had to rank someone lower, better to be in a worse team to get higher ratings. It had obviously negative impact, but there was some combination or organizational pride that had been cultivated, plus we thought we'd all be millionaires anyway so what did it hurt. But I bet some people had to leave who were the unfortunate victim of these affects.

Re:Meta and Google are cutting staff by joshuamorton on Wednesday September 21, 2022 @05:33PM (#32931803)
The other key component of stack ranking was that it's on a per team basis.

A team of 20 people may have no low performers. An org of 400 probably has a couple, at some point the law of large numbers does really start to apply, and you're no longer in competition with the people you're working with on the daily.

If one member of your two-pizza team is going to get fired each year, it makes sense to throw someone under the bus on the reg. If one member of your 100 person org is going to get fired each year, that strategy doesn't make sense.

Re:Meta and Google are cutting staff by evgen on Wednesday September 21, 2022 @05:52PM (#32932019)
Having endured several such calibration sessions at FB/Meta I can also assure you that we are not even talking about 'large' numbers before there is a strong expectation that the ranking totals within an org will meet the predicted curve when it comes to the percentage at exceeds, meets, and meets most. I distinctly remember wasting more than 15 minutes of my life arguing with a skip level manager that someone who had course corrected and delivered solid work while digging themselves out of a PIP was at least a meets before eventually realizing this manager had a quota of meets most to fill and the person we were discussing was destined for that bucket just to make the numbers look as expected.
Re:Meta and Google are cutting staff by dustingetz on Wednesday September 21, 2022 @07:18PM (#32932905)
as a manager what do you say there to the report
Re:Meta and Google are cutting staff by fn-mote on Wednesday September 21, 2022 @08:52PM (#32933574)
Polish your resume, the guillotine is coming and there's nothing I can do to save you.

I tried for you, remember me when your next job is hiring managers.

Re:Meta and Google are cutting staff by disgruntledphd2 on Thursday September 22, 2022 @04:06AM (#32936056)
Or if you know a team is hiring internally then push them towards that.

Ideally you'd do this before calibration so the rating doesn't mess it up.

Re:Meta and Google are cutting staff by epolanski on Wednesday September 21, 2022 @06:24PM (#32932364)
In other words, it's like if you get rid of the worst player in each NBA team.

They are still super atheletes, but they are judged against other NBA teammates, not average professional basketballer in the world.

Re:Meta and Google are cutting staff by purpleblue on Wednesday September 21, 2022 @04:16PM (#32930946)
If you are grading in the context of peers, it's absolutely a form of sorting. Think of it like a partition-exchange sort, where everything past a particular level is in one bucket and everything above that level is in another bucket.