To give an analogy that Americans might understand: imagine that a drug cartel imposed martial law on USA. Constant torture, living in fear, millions of wasted lives. That's literally the situation in occupied territories(since 2012).
I don't understand how people can think there will be less violence imposed on Ukrainians if they stop fighting. There is plenty of bloody evidence from Russian conflicts since 1990.
Your analogy is wrong, but some border towns might see it as familiar. The analogy you're looking for is more like if Mexico (as a Nation) declared war on the just the states in the US that used to be Mexican territory, and then used their internal drug cartels (that they tacitly let exist, and allow to force project into the continental United States) to help finance and facilitate the war. There's still a ton of things wrong with that analogy, but it's closer to what I think you mean if I'm steel-maning it.
Only correction would be that a legalized form of the cartel runs the government in Mexico too
My main point is that the legal system and various consequences in occupation are close to those in cartel land.
That's not the real question at hand. There are no deathcamps or slavery IRL and everyone who is not exulted by propaganda and actually has to care for their own skin understands that.
> There is plenty of bloody evidence from Russian conflicts since 1990.
Like what?
I don't understand how people can think there will be less violence imposed on Ukrainians if they are supported by a certain someone with actually plenty of bloody evidence of staging, escalating and participating in wars all over the world.
See bit about all working age men in LNR/DNR being thrown poorly equipped into battle. There is also evidence of farmers being forced to work occupied land for free. What do you call that if not slavery?
>> There is plenty of bloody evidence from Russian conflicts since 1990.
> Like what?
Already mentioned this elsewhere in thread.
That's not deathcamps. Same argument could be made for Ukrainian conscripts being thrown into battle just as poorly equipped. And it still wouldn't be deathcamps.
> There is also evidence of farmers being forced to work occupied land for free.
A solid one? I've already seen enough "evidence" of Russians eating babies and stealing asphalt and toilets.
> Already mentioned this elsewhere in thread.
Sorry, if there are no specifics, I won't be trying to guess.
Post-Soviet military frictions due to completely idiotically handled dissolution process are so full of myths and legends and are such a complex topic, that in practice most people have no actual idea.
Take for example Georgia of 2008, for which the "common knowledge" is so vastly different from the UN investigation conclusion.
Please post proof of “deathcamps” in Ukraine where families are being systematically murdered. I’m aware of filtration camps: https://www.hrw.org/report/2022/09/01/we-had-no-choice/filtr...
Most detailed content on war is in Russian and Ukrainian though you might find something in NYT or WSJ. They work directly with sources on ground.
International officials are preparing a report on Izium. They give previews in YouTube Livestreams so far ala https://youtu.be/2N696dD2NmY
Here is a text report in cleansing operations in Kherson https://nv.ua/ukraine/events/hersonskiy-zhurnalist-konstanti...
I don't mean a geographically restricted Nazi deathcamp. I mean whole country will be ruled by a mafia that executes you and your family when they don't like something in your past or present.
In general occupation is less violent than a war by definition. I don’t doubt that they would purge the military and administration, but the outcome would be more or less “Russia” for the majority of the people. Corruption, poverty, abuses of power.
Regarding your link, I don’t believe Ukrainian or Russian sources. They are propaganda organs of the state. When Amnesty International dared criticize Ukrainian war crimes it came under a torrent of abuse, one can imagine what kind of retribution a critical article from a local organization would receive…
AFAIK foreign journalists don’t get any access either and have to make do with what they’re told.
Abhasia, LNR, DNR have all been clensed of opposition.
LNR and DNR males are being forced into military operations like indentured servants of Russian empire.
What news sources do you believe?
Other countries like Eastern Germany, Romania, Poland, Bulgaria, etc were under Soviet occupation for decades. I believe that the absolute worst case would have looked like in those countries. The more likely case would be a coup, purge of political apparatus and military bases.
I believe you’re talking about conscription in regards to the LPR and DPR. Yes, that’s bad, but to answer your question in the sibling comment… that’s war. Men have to fight whether they want it or not, unfortunately.
Where can one read from an impartial organization about what happened in the DPR and LPR? Does cleansed mean killed, or that they fled or were arrested? According to https://mondediplo.com/2022/09/09donbass life is as one would expect during war. Terrible…
This is despicable indeed https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oles_Buzina
Assassinations are common in Russia too, as are false flag operations.
See apartment bombings that led to second Chechen war.
The Second Chechen war had started in August 1999 when Chechen militants invaded neighboring Dagestan (Russian territory), with random skirmishes starting as early as May 1999
The bombings you are referring to had happened in September 1999, like a month after the conflict had already escalated into a war.
It's not hard to check the facts and timelines. Parroting every random legend or a conspiracy theory without critical thinking won't do you any good.
Furthermore this could be an assassination by Russian foreign killers similar killings in UK
> Furthermore this could be an assassination by Russian foreign killers similar killings in UK
That’s what ukrainian investigators are refusing to establish, even though the family of the victim is demanding the official verdict, with no success:
> The head of Ukrainian MIA Arsen Avakov has blamed a Ukrainian nationalist in the murder. All suspects were later released from custody with two (A. Medvedko and D. Polischuk) being placed under house arrest and one - cleared from all the charges. By April 2017 no progress was made in the murder investigation. On 28 November 2017, the case was forwarded from prosecution office into court, even though on 11 July 2016, it was reported a lot of major evidence, including photo robots of the suspects made by eye witnesses, CCTV footage and cell phone monitoring, has been lost from case materials.
Sounds awfully absolutist.
What's it like to tell victims of agression how they should feel about it?
Not to mention the risk of nuclear extinction which is very high. I’ve read that most mechanisms developed to avoid exactly such a scenario were dismantled and the Russian and US government aren’t even on speaking terms. WTF are US and EU politicians thinking?
The rhetoric was purposefully shaped into into an absolute victory or death, but the more realistic outcome would have been victory or end up like Belarus/Georgia.