News for hackers. Stuff that matters.
Re:U.S. appeals court rejects big tech’s right to regulate o... by hn_throwaway_99 on Saturday September 17, 2022 @08:05PM (#32882944)
This is the other article that made it to the front page of HN on this topic:

https://www.techdirt.com/2022/09/16/5th-circuit-rewrites-a-c...

It goes into thorough analysis into why this is such a lazy, stupid decision. This is the quote I agree with:

> Frankly, Oldham’s arguments sound much more like the arguments made by ignorant trolls in our comments than anyone with any knowledge or experience with 1st Amendment law.

This "judge" is an unqualified political hack.

Re:U.S. appeals court rejects big tech’s right to regulate o... by catiopatio on Saturday September 17, 2022 @08:15PM (#32883007)
> It goes into thorough analysis into why this is such a lazy, stupid decision.

The author, Mike Masnick, is a tech blogger — not an attorney, as far as I've been able to determine.

Even Eugene Volokh — who is both an actual attorney and uniquely qualified to weigh in here — didn't attempt to digest the 113 pages of the opinion, much less immediately produce a reasoned analysis. I'm sure one will be forthcoming.

The quote you cited from Masnick certainly isn't legal analysis. It's empty invective, as are statements like "This "judge" is an unqualified political hack".

Re:U.S. appeals court rejects big tech’s right to regulate o... by mhneu on Saturday September 17, 2022 @09:13PM (#32883397)
Volokh is a conservative attorney who is intellectually aligned with the 5th circuit judges who wrote this opinion.

A few other sources:

- Lawrence Tribe, a very senior center-left constitutional lawyer and Harvard prof: https://twitter.com/tribelaw/status/1562951505451266050

"A disgraceful Fifth Circuit decision"

- Reporters' Committee on Freedom of the Press (a deeply centrist/neutral organization) https://twitter.com/katie_rcfp/status/1570897188359909377

"Just finished reading the 5th Circuit’s decision in the NetChoice v. Paxton case and it’s . . . not good. To say the First Amendment analysis is deeply flawed would be an understatement."

- Orin Kerr, a conservative attorney who's also been a Federalist Society backer: https://twitter.com/OrinKerr/status/1570900354061180929

"I am old-fashioned, but I would think that inferior courts start with what the Supreme Court has said the text means."

(I did a quick search and found three sources that span the ideological spectrum, which show how widespread the negativity about this decision has been.)

This is a terribly-reasoned decision that doesn't make much legal sense. It's an ideological decision, motivated by the feeling that rightwing voices, which are actually boosted by the rich people that own social media, are instead, against all sense, suppressed.

Re:U.S. appeals court rejects big tech’s right to regulate o... by leereeves on Sunday September 18, 2022 @07:12AM (#32886517)
> - Lawrence Tribe, a very senior center-left constitutional lawyer and Harvard prof: https://twitter.com/tribelaw/status/1562951505451266050

That tweet isn't even about this case, it's about voting rights for felons.

Re:U.S. appeals court rejects big tech’s right to regulate o... by catiopatio on Saturday September 17, 2022 @09:49PM (#32883578)
> Volokh is a conservative attorney who is intellectually aligned with the 5th circuit judges who wrote this opinion.

Volokh is the Gary T. Schwartz Distinguished Professor of Law at UCLA, uniquely qualified to weigh in on first amendment law, wrote a column on first amendment and speech issues for the Washington Post for years, and frankly, I imagine would be pretty disappointed (but not surprised, in these illiberal times), to be written off as a “conservative attorney” when he’s consistently espoused libertarian views over the decades.

On top of which, he hasn’t actually weighed in on this ruling yet, and may very well take umbrage with the decision!

His blog at reason did, in fact, post a guest article arguing that the ruling falls afoul of the takings clause.

> Orin Kerr, a conservative attorney and notable Federalist Society backer

You just disqualified Volokh for being a “conservative attorney”.

Now you’re citing a conservative attorney whose opinion suits your argument?

That’s not arguing logically or in good faith, even putting aside the fact that your claims regarding Volokh are a fabrication.

Re:U.S. appeals court rejects big tech’s right to regulate o... by haswell on Saturday September 17, 2022 @11:47PM (#32884234)
The way I read the parent comment, they dismissed Volokh for stated reasons, but then provided three other sources to bolster the idea that early analysis is generally all against this ruling.

They mentioned they cited sources across the ideological spectrum. In theory, that's good.

It sounds like the primary issue here is mischaracterization of Volokh, but that doesn't necessarily change or invalidate the other sources mentioned.

Re:U.S. appeals court rejects big tech’s right to regulate o... by catiopatio on Sunday September 18, 2022 @12:00AM (#32884306)
My primary issue is that (1) these replies are rebutting imagined arguments that neither I (nor Volokh, for that matter) have actually made, and (2) in the fervor to rebut these strawmen, Volokh was grossly mischaracterized.
Re:U.S. appeals court rejects big tech’s right to regulate o... by Steko on Sunday September 18, 2022 @05:09AM (#32885800)
Speaking of 'grossly mischaracterizing' Volokh, why do you think he is "uniquely qualified" to weigh in here? Is it because your views usually align with his? He seems no more qualified than the sources mhneu provided. This decision has been soundly roasted across the spectrum.
Re:U.S. appeals court rejects big tech’s right to regulate o... by catiopatio on Sunday September 18, 2022 @06:23AM (#32886198)
> Speaking of 'grossly mischaracterizing' Volokh, why do you think he is "uniquely qualified" to weigh in here?

Volokh is a highly-credentialed subject matter expert whose work has been cited by the Supreme Court, and who has been working in first amendment and related law for decades.

His first book, in 2001, was "The First Amendment: Problems, Cases and Policy Arguments. New York: Foundation Press."

He published a 100+ page, peer-reviewed article covering this subject area in 2021:

https://papers.ssrn.com/sol3/papers.cfm?abstract_id=3913792

> He seems no more qualified than the sources mhneu provided.

He's a great deal more qualified, but that's not the point. He hasn't weighed in on this decision at all yet, other than to note that it was released.

I swear, the amount of "motivated reading" by emotionally invested commenters has me seriously suspicious of anyone that holds a particularly strong legal position on this just-released decision. People do not appear to be thinking. At all.

> This decision has been soundly roasted across the spectrum.

It may very well be rebutted by Volokh, but if so, it won't be a "roasting", and his position will certainly be a great deal more erudite than "this judge is an idiot!"

I brought up Volokh in contrast with the random tech blogger's review of the decision that was cited by the (now great-great-great...-grant-parent post), because if a subject matter expert like Volokh has not yet had time to read and properly analyze the decision, there's simply no way "Mike Masnick" of "Techdirt" has.

Re:U.S. appeals court rejects big tech’s right to regulate o... by zimpenfish on Sunday September 18, 2022 @04:14AM (#32885512)
Noted 1st amendment lawyer Ken White (@popehat) said "It really is the most angrily incoherent First Amendment decision I think I’ve ever read."[1]

[1] https://twitter.com/Popehat/status/1570889517221158912

Re:U.S. appeals court rejects big tech’s right to regulate o... by eduction on Saturday September 17, 2022 @08:21PM (#32883040)
What do you think the most convincing part of that techdirt piece is? To me it mostly reads like an exasperated emotional rant. He calls the ruling “stupid” and “batshit crazy” and likens the judges to “ignorant trolls.” And uses italics everywhere. It’s not exactly an appeal to reason.

To me the one interesting bit was this: “ The websites do engage in editorial control. The difference from newspapers is that it’s ex post control. If there are complaints, they will review the content afterwards to see if it matches with their editorial policies (i.e., terms of use).”

I mean, I disagree — terms of use of a tech platform are miles away from an actual editorial opinion, they are bloodless legal documents and virtually impossible to read for pleasure, unlike actual editorial - but at least this engages with the decision on the merits.

I’d encourage anyone to read the actual decision, it (and the dissent) are more interesting reading than this. (And unlike at TechDirt the citations don’t approvingly quote someone named “Wonton Killing Hat”). https://www.ca5.uscourts.gov/opinions/pub/21/21-51178-CV1.pd...

Re:U.S. appeals court rejects big tech’s right to regulate o... by hn_throwaway_99 on Saturday September 17, 2022 @08:43PM (#32883189)
That article quotes the opinion at length, and I think does a good job of pointing out how bad the opinion is on its face.

For example, just look at the section where the opinion argues that the platform is bringing up "hypotheticals" it talking about curbing pro-Nazi or terrorist posts. I kept re-reading the quoted opinion again and again thinking "Is this judge a complete idiot?" To be clear, I'm not basing this on the commentary from the article's author (though I agree with him). But trying to argue that pro-Nazi and terrorist speech on tech platforms are "hypotheticals" makes me wonder if this judge has ever seen the Internet.

Re:U.S. appeals court rejects big tech’s right to regulate o... by eduction on Saturday September 17, 2022 @09:25PM (#32883461)
I appreciate the answer. Interesting. My read on that section was that it was all around specifically the request for immediate preliminary relief (to stay the state law basically?) — this was from section IV right? - and in that section the “hypothetical enforcement” was, in my reading, pretty clearly referring to what the tech companies were arguing the state would do to enforce the law, and the court seemed to be saying, you haven’t established that the enforcement mechanism will be onerous because it’s yet to be seen how this will be enforced - your concerns about enforcement are hypothetical.

But IANAL and had to read through it pretty fast.

Re:U.S. appeals court rejects big tech’s right to regulate o... by catiopatio on Saturday September 17, 2022 @09:20PM (#32883434)
“Hypothetical”, in this legal context, is used to describe an assumption of facts to be used to test a logical proposition or legal consequences under those assumed facts.

The judge’s use of the term “hypothetical” was correct, and does not represent an assertion, one way or the other, about whether “pro-Nazi and terrorist speech” does or does not exist on these platforms.