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Re:FTC to crack down on companies taking advantage of gig wo... by andrewflnr on Saturday September 17, 2022 @01:51PM (#32879582)
As a society, we have to decide that certain kinds of voluntary agreements are too exploitative, have too big of a power differential, to be compatible with liberty and therefore are not permissible. Selling yourself into literal slavery comes to mind, but the bar can be a lot higher than that. Part of making sure that "better offers" exist is banning intolerable offers. If this damages or bankrupts your business, it means you weren't producing enough value for the resources, including humans' finite lifetimes, that you were consuming.

In this particular case, the important thing to me is the focus on honesty about the nature of the job. If they tell you, while you're voluntarily entering an agreement, that you'll have a certain degree of flexibility, and in practice they try not to let you have that, you've been lured into the deal on false premises. Usually we call that fraud, and in any case it should be uncontroversial that it's immoral.

After reading the comments here I was prepared to be disappointed by the policy direction, but instead I'm only disappointed I didn't see any specific enforcement teeth mentioned. Demanding transparency and that companies treat their contractors as contractors is IMO the correct direction; it's certainly better than retroactively classifying as employees people who never wanted to be such, as we sometimes see.

Re:FTC to crack down on companies taking advantage of gig wo... by qeternity on Saturday September 17, 2022 @02:42PM (#32880122)
I think all of the hyperbole around slavery is massively disrespectful to actual slavery, which still exists in 2022. An Uber driver is not a slave.

But I do agree with you on everything else. I think that companies who want to hire contractors, should treat them as such, and not as employees for which they can reap the rewards of a contractor classification.

Re:FTC to crack down on companies taking advantage of gig wo... by andrewflnr on Saturday September 17, 2022 @07:02PM (#32882477)
Slavery is an existence proof for the general principle, not a direct comparison to Uber. I made clear reference to higher standards we could also choose to draw, that would be more relevant to gig work. I think I made it pretty damn clear I'm not opposed to gig work in principle. Don't ask me to compromise my arguments for some wooly notion of "respect" that's violated by the bare mention of slavery in a context that also disusses less horrible things. That makes everyone dumber.

Of all forums, on HN I feel I ought to be able to make a precise logical statement, meaning no more or less than I said, and be understood correctly. I like to think that most readers did, and the commenters (you less so, I'll grant) trying to draw obviously stupid conclusions from my careful wording are the minority.

Re:FTC to crack down on companies taking advantage of gig wo... by carom on Saturday September 17, 2022 @04:26PM (#32881255)
>Selling yourself into literal slavery comes to mind

You can still do this, it's called three hots and a cot. The police will direct you how to sign up.

If there are people desperate enough to go to prison to eat and have shelter, we should probably find a solution for those people within society. That likely means there is some point between what we currently offer and what prison offers where those people would be better off. Without those (shitty) jobs, you have a binary choice between good job or the streets.

Honestly, I think a lot of this comes back to housing policy and healthcare. You can't build boarding houses anymore. Zoning laws basically make it so you can be homeless or pay $1k / month (metro city). There's a lot of room in the middle there. The healthcare system is so bloated and broken that I do not think we will bring costs down, so the only solution there is state funded then using state leverage.

Setting a floor for voluntary agreements sounds very humane, but it also means that anyone who can't reach that floor is open to abuse. The same goes for immigrant labor. We don't clamp down on it because doing so sounds racist, but it creates a system where people can be easily exploited.

Re:FTC to crack down on companies taking advantage of gig wo... by fairity on Saturday September 17, 2022 @03:13PM (#32880449)
> As a society, we have to decide that certain kinds of voluntary agreements are too exploitative, have too big of a power differential, to be compatible with liberty and therefore are not permissible.

Do we though? If UBI and universal healthcare were a thing, I would be OK green-lighting ALL voluntary agreements. What am I missing?

Re:FTC to crack down on companies taking advantage of gig wo... by andrewflnr on Saturday September 17, 2022 @07:25PM (#32882641)
You're assuming UBI perfectly and completely eliminates reasons to join exploitative agreements. This is unlikely, even assuming your UBI has perfectly equitable execution, as there are many more reasons than money people get into such agreements. Most relevantly deceptive advertising, but also various forms of emotional manipulation, just not being very smart, etc. Those so vulnerable deserve at least some protection, and defending them holds the line both practically and morally for mistakes in UBI implementation, setting a clear standard for society, cutting down on people making predatory offers, and keeping you safe when you have an off day where you might make a bad decision yourself.
Re:FTC to crack down on companies taking advantage of gig wo... by seer-zig on Saturday September 17, 2022 @05:02PM (#32881550)
UBI is not sustainable. For something that is sustainable (and proven), look into Islam's Zakat.
Re:FTC to crack down on companies taking advantage of gig wo... by adolph on Saturday September 17, 2022 @02:47PM (#32880180)
> Selling yourself into literal slavery

What are the working conditions that cause something to be literal slavery as opposed to contract labor?

Would individual contracts with a nation's armed forces count as slavery? Why or why not?