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Re:U.S. appeals court rejects big tech’s right to regulate o... by dpifke on Saturday September 17, 2022 @01:08PM (#32879145)
The decision[0] gives different logic (quoting from page 85):

If a firm’s core business is disseminating others’ speech, then that should weaken, not strengthen, the firm’s argument that it has a First Amendment right to censor that speech. In PruneYard, for example, the shopping mall was open to the public—but for the purpose of shopping, not sharing expression. So it was perhaps tenuous for the State to use the public nature of the mall to justify a speech-hosting requirement. Cf. PruneYard, 447 U.S. at 95 (White, J., concurring in part) (noting that California’s hosting requirement involved communication “about subjects having no connection with the shopping centers’ business”). But here, the Platforms are open to the public for the specific purpose of disseminating the public’s speech. It’s rather odd to say that a business has more rights to discriminate when it’s in the speech business than when it’s in some altogether non-speech business (like shopping or legal education).

A point a lot of commenters here seem to be missing is that it would be perfectly legal under the law to ban all discussion of politics, regardless of viewpoint. The law just says that if you're a site with more than 50 million users, you cannot dictate which political parties your users are allowed to write favorably about and ban users for having opposing viewpoints.

[0] https://www.ca5.uscourts.gov/opinions/pub/21/21-51178-CV1.pd... (PDF)

Re:U.S. appeals court rejects big tech’s right to regulate o... by matthewdgreen on Saturday September 17, 2022 @03:25PM (#32880581)
If you say "we are going to restrict ourselves [at the Government's insistence] to only moderating non-political speech" then someone will insist that some part of your non-political speech is actually political. And from some perspective they will be right.

Then you get to negotiate with the government and the courts about what they consider to be political speech or not. And suddenly you no longer live in a country that has a meaningful First Amendment.

Re:U.S. appeals court rejects big tech’s right to regulate o... by stale2002 on Saturday September 17, 2022 @04:41PM (#32881381)
Contrary to what people often claim, the government making any decision at all about what is and is not speech, or political speech, does not cause immediate free speech violations.

Yes, the government decides all the time, in a long standing and well studied legal history, about what is or is not speech.

In fact, I would go so far as to say that the primary purpose of the court system, with regards to free speech cases, is deciding what does or does not count as speech.

Re:U.S. appeals court rejects big tech’s right to regulate o... by kelnos on Saturday September 17, 2022 @04:37PM (#32881339)
> And suddenly you no longer live in a country that has a meaningful First Amendment.

The overarching issue is that I don't see what the first amendment has to do with this at all. Corporations have zero obligations to anyone under the first amendment, which only applies to the government.

Re:U.S. appeals court rejects big tech’s right to regulate o... by catiopatio on Saturday September 17, 2022 @06:02PM (#32882038)
The intent of the first amendment was to preserve free speech in the public square; "what the first amendment has to do with this at all" is a desire to preserve that underlying societal principle.

Section 230 was a give-away to corporations that allowed them to privatize and co-opt the public square; they reap the economic benefit of being shielded from liability for what people post, but none of the responsibility to carry everyone's speech.

If we want to preserve free speech in the public square, some form of balance has to be restored, either by:

1. Eliminating the section 230 liability shield that allowed them to privatize public discourse in the first place.

2. Requiring privatized "public squares" to operate more like common carriers.

Solution (1) — eliminating section 230 — would likely make it infeasible to run a private website carrying public speech.

Texas seems to have attempted a nuanced version of solution (2): in exchange for being granted the privilege of being shielded from liability for the speech they carry, platforms of a size large enough to justify treating them as a "public square" must meet common-carrier-like requirements that prevent them from discriminating based on viewpoint.

Re:U.S. appeals court rejects big tech’s right to regulate o... by matthewdgreen on Monday September 19, 2022 @12:28PM (#32900484)
> platforms of a size large enough to justify treating them as a "public square" must meet common-carrier-like requirements that prevent them from discriminating based on viewpoint.

This sounds so reasonable and nuanced until you reach this final phrase: "prevent them from discriminating based on viewpoint." Doing that requires the state to determine what speech is "un-biased, politically neutral speech" and which speech has a political "viewpoint." And under this law a government will determine this at the point of a gun, not the people operating individual websites.

(Because obviously if you implemented this in a truly content-neutral way along the lines that you suggest for a common carrier, every platform would be overrun by spam. So there has to be a decision about what constitutes biased speech, and that means political figures will be making determinations.)

This isn't theoretical. Nobody in this country even agrees on what "political/biased" speech is. Things that used to be broadly accepted by our whole society no longer are. I'm not going to go into examples, but you know exactly what they are. And you probably disagree with half of them. This law means that you won't get to decide, the state and the courts will.

If your problem is the over-concentration of social networking companies, I'm happy to agree. I urge you to support laws that reduce the power and userbase of these firms in a content-neutral way -- without placing the government in charge of what speech is "ok".

Re:U.S. appeals court rejects big tech’s right to regulate o... by NegativeK on Saturday September 17, 2022 @08:33PM (#32883127)
> Wyden, now a Senator, stated that he intended for Section 230 to be both "a sword and a shield" for Internet companies, the "sword" allowing them to remove content they deem inappropriate for their service, and the shield to help keep offensive content from their sites without liability. However, Wyden warned that because tech companies have not been willing to use the sword to remove content, they could be at risk of losing the shield.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Section_230#Platform_neutralit...

Given that hate speech (the context of that quote) is very often political and/or protected free speech, I don't think one of the two authors of the bill agrees with how you're interpreting it.

Re:U.S. appeals court rejects big tech’s right to regulate o... by catiopatio on Saturday September 17, 2022 @08:54PM (#32883266)
I’m claiming that section 230 is a fundamentally flawed construction that privatized the modern public square, while socializing the costs inherent in that privatization.

I’m not debating whether section 230 is functioning in accordance with its authors’ intentions; frankly, what they intended doesn’t matter.

Section 230 was a totally inappropriate give-away of unique privileges without requiring commiserate public value be returned in-kind, contrary to our long history of requiring that common carriers serve the public without discrimination in exchange for the unique privilege of being shielded from liability.

Re:U.S. appeals court rejects big tech’s right to regulate o... by NegativeK on Saturday September 17, 2022 @11:32PM (#32884163)
Ah.

I see where you're coming from, but I frankly believe that the internet as we know it is fundamentally unworkable without the ability for some platforms to restrict the voices of some users. It's also fundamentally unworkable if we make the platforms liable for the users words.

I'm up for solutions like breaking up the larger platforms so that users have more choice, but I consider 230 to be integral in mass user interaction.

To put it another way: I'm uninterested in an internet where websites are legally forced to either be sterile and userless or act like 4chan.

Re:U.S. appeals court rejects big tech’s right to regulate o... by BlueTemplar on Sunday September 18, 2022 @04:13PM (#32891064)
4chan is largely 4chan because :

- it's reputation is attracting trolls

(BTW, does 4chan even have the minimum 50M monthly users to qualify ?)

- it has that anonymous (rather than pseudonymous) social convention

I see a lot of "the sky is falling" reactions here, but even if large websites were prevented from banning content, nothing forbids them from allowing users themselves hide the (pseudonym-linked) content that they deem undesirable, a feature that is already widespread.

(Also, large platforms are not the Internet, and not even the Web, and I would be happy to see them gone.)

Re:U.S. appeals court rejects big tech’s right to regulate o... by pstuart on Sunday September 18, 2022 @01:43AM (#32884741)
The intent of the first was specifically to keep the government from prohibiting your speech.

Social media sites are not the government -- they have their TOS like everybody else does. Love it or leave it.

It should also be noted that conservatives absolutely believe in banning speech they don't like. So it's not the principle of it, it's the power.

Re:U.S. appeals court rejects big tech’s right to regulate o... by erichocean on Saturday September 17, 2022 @09:33PM (#32883497)
> which only applies to the government

Which only applies to the Federal government. States have had rules about speech since forever.

Texas wants platforms with > 50M users to treat political speech equally. That's well within a State's right to acquire that protection for its citizens.

Other states can choose different rules, or to leave their citizens with less rights, it's up to them.

Re:U.S. appeals court rejects big tech’s right to regulate o... by mikem170 on Saturday September 17, 2022 @02:07PM (#32879751)
This is an interesting precedent! The big social network companies could make the legal argument that they are advertising networks, not free speech networks, and should be able to censor people in order to better fulfil their primary purpose. They would be telling the truth.
Re:U.S. appeals court rejects big tech’s right to regulate o... by P5fRxh5kUvp2th on Sunday September 18, 2022 @09:37AM (#32887431)
One other thing I'd like to point out.

This is a very classic "the good of society balanced against the rights of the private citizen/organization".

This isn't about private corporate rights, it's about the good of society against those private corporate rights.

You may disagree with where exactly this lands, but I doubt you disagree with the premise that personal rights must be balanced against the greater good (queue hotfuzz reference).

If you think you do, ask yourself if you feel the very idea of hate speech shouldn't exist. There are those who do, but more typically, people just disagree with where that idea lands rather than the idea itself.

Re:U.S. appeals court rejects big tech’s right to regulate o... by solarmist on Saturday September 17, 2022 @02:22PM (#32879893)
Current law doesn’t have machinery to represent this idea, so it makes sense their arguments won’t match.

But at the core of all the arguments this is the idea that’s trying to be settled.

And really it’s more complicated than all that because it boils down to the algorithm deciding who to show the posts too.

An unbiased algorithm is impossible.

Show all political messages to all people, now you’ve just incentivized politicians to have multiple people full time jobs be to produce more messages.

Re:U.S. appeals court rejects big tech’s right to regulate o... by erichocean on Saturday September 17, 2022 @09:36PM (#32883513)
> An unbiased algorithm is impossible.

False. Twitter's original algorithm (everyone you followed in reverse insertion order) is trivially unbiased.

The bias creeps in when they analyze the content of the speech (or who specifically likes it or…). You can 100% do an unbiased algorithmic feed that re-orders (or omits) things.

Twitter and Facebook could do it today. They shadow ban and suppress all sorts of things (beyond kicking actual human users off the site).

Re:U.S. appeals court rejects big tech’s right to regulate o... by chunkyks on Saturday September 17, 2022 @09:52PM (#32883604)
Seems easily solved by twitter recalculating their number of users by subtracting the bots, leaving the total users around 49 million and change.
Re:U.S. appeals court rejects big tech’s right to regulate o... by taeric on Saturday September 17, 2022 @02:21PM (#32879884)
That seems like a silly distinction. At a broad level, all discussion can be seen as political. And it is natural for events to be dominated by actions from a side for a time, such that it would be natural for more criticisms of a political party over others at any time.

This gets dangerously into the "whataboutisms" of toxic discourse. Especially when they are not presented in at all an even or good faith manner.

Re:U.S. appeals court rejects big tech’s right to regulate o... by solarmist on Saturday September 17, 2022 @02:34PM (#32880005)
What? No they aren’t. A discussion about my week or grocery shopping isn’t political.

You can make any discussion political, but that’s not at all the same.

Re:U.S. appeals court rejects big tech’s right to regulate o... by taeric on Saturday September 17, 2022 @02:40PM (#32880096)
You'd be surprised. Folks will pick brands for political reasons, too. More, folks will band against brands for said reasons.

I mean, you are correct that there can be neutral discussions. Typically, neutral isn't as neutral as you'd think.

Re:U.S. appeals court rejects big tech’s right to regulate o... by TobyTheDog123 on Saturday September 17, 2022 @02:54PM (#32880250)
That would be an example of people making something political out of a non-political issue. Both people and companies can be guilty of this.

"Oh, I ran into Lucy at the supermarket today"

"Awesome, did they have that new brand of ice cream?"

"I didn't see it, but they did have a massive sale on strawberries."

"Darn, I guess I'll check Market Cart next time I go."

---

"Oh, I ran into Lucy at the supermarket today"

"Did you hear she voted for Tom?"

"Oh... uh, no?"

"I dont know how people can enable such evil. Did they have that new ice cream?"

"No, but they did have a massive sale on strawberries"

"Oh, I heard they donated to Tom, so I don't want it in my house anyways."

Re:U.S. appeals court rejects big tech’s right to regulate o... by themitigating on Saturday September 17, 2022 @03:41PM (#32880771)
"I ran into Lucy at the supermarket, she told me everything is costing so much because of inflation. She said this is terrible for her family and wonders why the government won't fix it"
Re:U.S. appeals court rejects big tech’s right to regulate o... by solarmist on Saturday September 17, 2022 @02:59PM (#32880313)
I agree, but you’re being pedantic. Most discussions people have not about political topics wouldn’t be viewed as such even if individual decisions, such as your brand example, were politically motivated.
Re:U.S. appeals court rejects big tech’s right to regulate o... by themitigating on Saturday September 17, 2022 @03:39PM (#32880748)
"I had to get gas this week, the prices are so high because of Biden"
Re:U.S. appeals court rejects big tech’s right to regulate o... by Kloversight2 on Saturday September 17, 2022 @03:18PM (#32880512)
What's most interesting about this is that, as far as I can tell, no current "big tech" company violates this law.