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Re:Stripe has decided to nuke my entire business by gfodor on Thursday September 15, 2022 @12:49PM (#32854797)
This is why we need a decentralized Internet payment system, like email.

This was a non-controversial opinion not long ago.

Re:Stripe has decided to nuke my entire business by jandrese on Thursday September 15, 2022 @01:12PM (#32855218)
A payment system like that would run face first into Know Your Customer (KYC) laws and bet shut down.

This isn't a hard problem for technical reasons, it's all political. It's about preventing money laundering and trying to fight crime via financial instruments. But it also means any payment system that doesn't implement these restrictions will almost instantly be overrun by criminals because they are highly motivated to find ways of moving money.

Re:Stripe has decided to nuke my entire business by mmerlin on Thursday September 15, 2022 @02:02PM (#32856000)
I wonder if criminals didn't have so much money to launder, would bitcoin have ever managed to jump the "belief gap" to the extreme degee it did, from computational bits of cryptographically unique data into actual spendable dollars?
Re:Stripe has decided to nuke my entire business by mindcrime on Thursday September 15, 2022 @02:02PM (#32855998)
A payment system like that would run face first into Know Your Customer (KYC) laws and bet shut down.

Great, then let's change those laws.

Re:Stripe has decided to nuke my entire business by multiplegeorges on Thursday September 15, 2022 @03:17PM (#32857156)
Why? They are a net benefit to society and above board businesses.
Re:Stripe has decided to nuke my entire business by jandrese on Thursday September 15, 2022 @08:37PM (#32860444)
If you subscribe to the belief that criminal activity is a drain on society then there is a case for trying to combat it. Then it becomes a question of "do these KYC laws cost more to society than the crimes they prevent?" That is a harder question, but it is hard to overstate the amount of damage to a society rampant corruption and crime can cause and the benefits of allowing anonymous finance are somewhat more nebulous.
Re:Stripe has decided to nuke my entire business by PeterisP on Thursday September 15, 2022 @02:36PM (#32856488)
Good luck, not going to happen.

Democratic systems won't change these laws because there is no popular support for change - there is a reasonably large 'law-and-order' and 'corruption-as-main-concern' voter demographic who strongly support these laws, and the niche of HN techies and libertarians who'd oppose them is insignificantly small in comparison; and authoritarian systems won't change these laws because their leadership supports them even more.

Re:Stripe has decided to nuke my entire business by mindcrime on Thursday September 15, 2022 @02:41PM (#32856573)
I acknowledge that that is the prevailing sentiment, and the obviously correct conclusion. And yet I can't accept that kind of defeatist thinking. To embrace defeatism on that level is to basically accept that nothing will ever change, and we know that things do, occasionally, change. It's not always clear exactly what it takes to create wide-scale societal change, and yes one could easily spend their whole life engaging in activism and die with nothing to show for it. Yet people do still persist, for their own reasons. And sometimes the good guys do win.
Re:Stripe has decided to nuke my entire business by PeterisP on Thursday September 15, 2022 @02:49PM (#32856711)
It's not passive giving up - many people, including me, consider the social change you want to drive as harmful in aggregate, and would fight against it; and I'm asserting that at the moment we are in the majority.

I understand the idealistic benefits of freedom of payments, however, the KYC/AML restrictions are there for valid reasons that simply have much more magnitude of importance (for example, the scale of corruption and its social harm is so big that even a slight decrease in that due to KYC/AML enforcement far outweighs all the current social costs of KYC/AML) and removing them would mean that in aggregate the bad guys have won. I'm not saying that you're a bad guy, but you are an "ally of convenience" to them as achieving your position would let the bad guys win and I would consider it immoral to allow that.

We definitely should strive for better, more accurate AML/KYC implementations that have less impact on legitimate trade. But arguing for removing AML/KYC just because of that is effectively throwing out the baby with the bathwater.

Re:Stripe has decided to nuke my entire business by gfodor on Friday September 16, 2022 @09:26AM (#32865777)
The most compelling reason to argue against these kinds of laws is to think of their full consequences if suddenly illegal transactions were virtuous, as they have been in the past when totalitarian regimes have gained power. The present day doesn’t put a high value on freedom to transact in the west, because most illegal transactions in the west are for things many would consider criminal or immoral. But if times change (as they do in history) then not securing the freedom to transact and a vibrant economy rooted in this freedom will be come to seen as a grave error imo.
Re:Stripe has decided to nuke my entire business by mindcrime on Thursday September 15, 2022 @03:38PM (#32857433)
Fair enough.
Re:Stripe has decided to nuke my entire business by HeyLaughingBoy on Thursday September 15, 2022 @04:51PM (#32858274)
Why?
Re:Stripe has decided to nuke my entire business by jollybean on Thursday September 15, 2022 @01:00PM (#32855024)
We should, but the problem is consumers want the protections offered by PayPal and VISA who do fraud analysis and can clawback money etc. etc..

There's definitely a space for 'digital cash', for sure, but consumers will prefer the former.

When it comes to money, there are just deeply inherent issues of dealing with fraud, spam, goods not delivered etc. etc.. which adds significant overhead to the whole system.

Most people playing above-above board don't have a problem.

Usually in these cases, it's because something semi-shady is being sold, and it usually contravenes one of the T&Cs of Stripe.

The OP here didn't tell us what line of business they were in.

Re:Stripe has decided to nuke my entire business by gfodor on Thursday September 15, 2022 @01:04PM (#32855096)
Yes, of course this is a huge challenge. That’s the point tho, the high order bit is we should want to solve these problems and support good faith actors who are actually trying to.
Re:Stripe has decided to nuke my entire business by alphabettsy on Thursday September 15, 2022 @01:11PM (#32855194)
What problems? There are organizations that are not Stripe where they have much better support.
Re:Stripe has decided to nuke my entire business by aynyc on Thursday September 15, 2022 @12:52PM (#32854871)
If gmail/outlook/yahoo bans you or mark you as spam, you are not gonna get much done.
Re:Stripe has decided to nuke my entire business by gfodor on Thursday September 15, 2022 @12:57PM (#32854962)
Yes the maximally centralized form of a protocol like email is the one we have now where a few large actors can collude to cut you off from large swaths of the network.

However, that’s different than a singular actor, but more importantly, nothing is stopping a counterforce from coming in and correcting that regime. It’s possible we may see email revert to a less centralized form over time as various people choose to prioritize working that problem (and can make headway, because of how email works.)

Re:Stripe has decided to nuke my entire business by Retric on Thursday September 15, 2022 @01:06PM (#32855121)
The point is email as a protocol is extremely open, but email as a network is quite centralized. There aren’t any great options here because buildings a system is easy but interfacing it with the real world and all it’s laws and bad actors is hard.

What people forget is interfacing with systems designed to operate in the real world is at best an abstraction over this difficulty and eventually it gets exposed for the mess it actually is.

Re:Stripe has decided to nuke my entire business by sbdncuvh on Thursday September 15, 2022 @01:11PM (#32855196)
This is unlikely the spam problem is too hard to solve at the small scale for you to ever be relevant.
Re:Stripe has decided to nuke my entire business by politelemon on Thursday September 15, 2022 @12:52PM (#32854856)
Your sentence caught me off guard, maybe I am reading it wrong. Do you mean email as a payment system, or do you mean email as an example of a decentralized system?
Re:Stripe has decided to nuke my entire business by gfodor on Thursday September 15, 2022 @12:53PM (#32854891)
The latter - a system that is like e-mail (decentralized) but allows people to send money to each other.

We have many such systems being developed, but you get downvoted on HN for promoting them, since people assume you are a scammer, a criminal, etc.

Re:Stripe has decided to nuke my entire business by ollien on Thursday September 15, 2022 @12:55PM (#32854918)
Ironically, email is becoming increasingly centralized. See this story from just a few days go

https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=32715437

Re:Stripe has decided to nuke my entire business by gfodor on Thursday September 15, 2022 @12:59PM (#32855012)
Yes, as with any protocol email is always subject to centralizing forces. But protocols like email (to me) represent the best possible approach to trying to counteract these forces for Internet applications. They aren’t a silver bullet but maintain the best forms of optionality for undermining and correcting them.
Re:Stripe has decided to nuke my entire business by rchaud on Thursday September 15, 2022 @01:30PM (#32855504)
How can they still be in development when the underlying tech has been available for 12 years or so?

In the real world, there is no anonymous e-money that doesn't end up having to be laundered back into good old cash.

Re:Stripe has decided to nuke my entire business by ilaksh on Thursday September 15, 2022 @03:34PM (#32857384)
Lol yeah so you are talking about a cryptocurrency but actually afraid to use that word. I know, I just did in my other comment and I know I will be attacked here.
Re:Stripe has decided to nuke my entire business by cwkoss on Thursday September 15, 2022 @02:10PM (#32856095)
Isn't that what cryptocurrency is?