What are you trying to insinuate, that the COVID vaccine is causing this?

Dishonesty can never satisfy intellectual curiosity. It’s not an insinuation, it’s a scientific possibility that warrants further investigation, especially when boosters are being rushed to market with similarly abbreviated clinical trials. There are some reasons for suspicion. One is the rapid fading of the vaccine’s effectiveness. Why is it so much faster than expected? What’s the mechanism? Another is that every other coronavirus vaccine tested has resulted in decreased immune function due to Antibody dependent engancement. Do we know the current vaccines cause ADE? Not so far as I’m aware. Is it something that should be researched? I’d say so.

Not being aware of any research about ADE doesn’t mean it hasn’t happened… There has been a ton of it and it tends to be something that shows up pretty evidently in clinical trials.

Not a research paper, but a good article talking about ADE: https://www.medpagetoday.com/special-reports/exclusives/9164...

What part of that article do you think has aged well?

Not that it wasn't braindead nonsense for anyone who cared to look at things with clear eyes even when it first came out.

If you do a Google Scholar search for COVID vaccines and all-cause mortality, you'll see that in most studies, people who got vaccinated die less in general (i.e. counting deaths from all causes).

Population level or absolute increases in deaths do not tell you the marginal impact of getting vaccinated. For example, there's no contradiction between both vaccinated and unvaccinated dying more and vaccines being protective.

If you select for careful, risk-averse populations, you'll see correlary effects of your selection and theirs, irrellevant to the measure you're taking.

People are dying at rates well outside historical norms. Things have causes. What is the cause of people dying more?

One would think after a pandemic with an outsized effect on those already in a moribund state that overall deaths would be down, but they aren’t, they are up. Why is that?

Why are excess deaths higher after rollout of the mRNA injections than before?

Nothing about it adds up, other than one sacred cow elephant in the room.

If people are dying more, there is a cause for that, people have tried everything they can that doesn’t involve going down sacred cow avenue, and they’ve come up empty.

Can be seen in the European data. Excess mortality should be back to normal levels, but it's barely changed between 2020, 2021 and 2022. Worse, older people do seem to be doing better but younger age groups worse.

https://www.euromomo.eu/graphs-and-maps#excess-mortality

> People are dying at rates well outside historical norms. Things have causes. What is the cause of people dying more?

I suspect it's your preexisting bias that makes you assume it's vaccines vs any vast number of other possible explanations. The point is, that we don't know what is driving these deaths. Research should be done, and if evidence turns up which suggests it's more likely vaccines than most other possibilities then sure it'd make sense to say vaccines may be the cause. Do you really think we have enough evidence pointing to vaccines being the cause right now? If so, where is it?

Until we have more answers it's impossible to say what the cause is, but what we do know and have evidence for is that Covid has become extremely (and unnecessarily) politicized, that data on the number of cases and deaths have been being interfered with by government officials, that there is a very strong economic incentive to get people to act in ways that could cause them to get infected, and that people who have been careful are growing tired of the restrictions being safe puts on them as well. We absolutely should expect uncertainty in the number of cases and deaths we see reported, and that could result in some amount of increase in excess deaths. So could complications not directly attributed to the virus, but caused by it still.

We've also got a whole lot of people these days drinking poisoned water and people who don't even have drinkable water. I can't even keep track of the all the cities that are under boil water orders. We've got people without power. We've got areas of the country flooding, other areas that on fire, people living in extreme poverty (including those who lost their job due to lockdowns or their ability to work because of long covid or their household income due to illness or deaths).

It seems like if there's one thing we're going to have to start getting used to it's increasing amounts of death. With so many causes throwing their contributions into the mix it's going to take time to sort it all out and we'll have to do it in an environment where at least some of the data is being manipulated and many people have their egos wrapped up in "taking sides".

Personally, I accepted the possibility that the vaccines could have terrible effects down the road (it was clear enough that there were no major issues in the short term) and I came to terms with that ages ago. If it does start to look like the vaccines have done some great harm then at least I can say that the choice to get vaccinated was easily the best that could be made with the information I had at the time. Sometimes you can make the right choice and still end up screwed when new information is discovered. I'm still hoping that doesn't turn out to be the case here, but if it is there's no point in denying it. Pretending it isn't true if it is would only make it harder to try to fix it (if that's even possible).

There are three things that have changed since the number of deaths went up in 2020. Covid, lockdowns and the associated harms and the vaccine. Now apparently covid deaths are down, yet excess deaths remain elevated. So the two obvious changes are a rushed "vaccine" with what appears to be fraudulent trials and lockdowns causing delayed diagnosis, treatment or suicide.

It should be easy to compare vaccinated to unvaccinated groups to find out if the vaccine is causing problems. But rather then do that, the authorities have done their best to destroy the control group and coerce everyone to take the failed "vaccine".

Excess deaths are widely considered to be “from Covid” right now. It is possible there’s something else going on, but as the parent said, the numbers you should care about when making a vaccine decision are the mortality rate of the vaccinated vs the unvaccinated.

Unvaccinated people are dying at a much higher rate. If your biggest concern is not dying, you should be vaccinated.

Most of the excess deaths are not covid but attributed from effects of lockdown (drug use, untreated cancers).

I've not heard this, it is interesting. Do you have information on source/methods/study groups etc?

I was going through serious medical issues when I lost access to my doctors from Covid.

I got lucky in that the 20th medication they tried just before lockdown ended up working. Would most likely probably be dead if things had shut down a month earlier.

Tons of people in support forums were in a panic over lost access. Needed testing / procedure.

Not fun when brain is swelling and doctors say they can’t see you.

I have loved ones that suffered similarly. I do not doubt there were excess morbidity/mortality from restrictions. I'm not doubting, but there is a ton of nuance in epidemiological data like this and I'm wondering about things like demographic cuts and magnitudes of numbers which are necessary to understand the statement.

Then we cannot attribute them to the vaccine, which was the original point.

And, likewise, you cannot NOT attribute them to the vaccine. Inconclusive data is not to be either used as a calibrated measure nor to be simply ignored.

The excess deaths are quite possibly attributable to both the virus and the vaccines if, as one plausible but very unproven example, they're due to inflammation and/or micro-clotting caused by the spike protein. But in an environment where everyone will be exposed to the actual virus eventually, with uncontrolled initial exposures, it comes down to whether the benefit of getting vaccinated is worth the risk. The data I've seen says that it is.

I micro clot. From before Covid. Factor 5. Will have stroke symptoms in 2 days of missing a blood thinner dose.

When I got Covid. I had to double blood thinner dosage for six month to not have symptoms.

Amazing how similar long Covid and my micro clotting from Factor 5 are.

Exactly I assumed everybody knew this. A lot of important surgery .. got postponed by hospitals because of lock-down.

But it's a valid concern to know if the vaccinated are dying at a higher rate than pre-2020, and if so, is that attributable to the vaccine.

There's no brushing off this concern, it's vitally important to get this information.

There are the CDC stats attached to a sibling comment.

There are large crowds that took 2 doses in pandemic period (getting vaccinated properly back at the time) but not receiving boosters.

It would be easy to track:

- 2 dose, no other booster

- all boosters

- no vaccine

and readjust results considering age and other bias etc.

If all booster people have excess deaths, than "not from Covid" ? If 2 dose people excess deaths < all boosted people, than something about vaccine? No vaccine could be control.

The unvaccinated have been receiving lower quality of care. The symptomatic have Been diagnosed without PCR accuracy. The data being collected is bad. Let's not treat it as good data, and see assumptions such as this for what they are, which falls in the "not good data" category.

> Excess deaths are widely considered to be “from Covid”

Considered by whom? The funny thing is that there was no non-covid excess mortality in 2020, that stated on 2021, which is the same time the v{censored} started.

> Unvaccinated people are dying at a much higher rate.

Again, where did you see that?

Insurance companies have already begun publishing reports indicating that excess mortality rates are inversely related to vaccine adoption (i.e. higher excess mortality in states with lower vaccination rates).

Source?

Apologies, as it's a PDF. I don't have another version of it available.

https://www.documentcloud.org/documents/22275411-group-life-...

Thanks. Very noisy data, so I'd say far from conclusive, particularly given the confounding variables that differ between states. Still, the best attempt I've seen to actually look into this issue.

Countries like the UK have national vaccination databases. They could easily put this issue to rest with a study of excess deaths by vaccination status, controlling for age/health/etc., except they conspicuously have chosen not to.

It's definitely not a scientific study of the data, but those will follow in years to come by respective national and international bodies I assume.

Starts on page 33, for any one else curious at looking. Quite interesting to see what appears to be their hazard ratio relative to the state population: their members have a much higher excess death rate, and their members show minimal correlation to the vaccine rate of the state they are in—presumably reflecting that older, sicker, or more health-conscious people opt in more often to buying health care plans?

> Again, where did you see that?

https://doh.wa.gov/sites/default/files/2022-02/421-010-Cases...

There are definitely excess deaths reported starting in 2020. Started in March. See the chart at the bottom of this page: https://www.cdc.gov/nchs/nvss/vsrr/covid19/excess_deaths.htm

And here’s the total death rate by vaccination status: https://ourworldindata.org/grapher/united-states-rates-of-co...

I assume you’ll switch to some CDC conspiracy nonsense at this point, in which case we are done here.

You're conflating total excess deaths for _all_ vax statuses (in your first link) against COVID death rates by vax status (with your second link).

Neither is what the GP is talking about.

Do you mean “Weekly number of deaths (from all causes)?” If so that is such a junk chart I don’t see how it supports either claim. The X axis label is absolute garbage. It’s completely unclear where the new year begins. A naive reading (counting back from 2022) has the excess deaths starting in 2019!