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Re:Hans Niemann says he is being unfairly attacked in chess ... by isaacfrond on Monday September 12, 2022 @05:02AM (#32807642)
With Kasparov himself saying that the Carlson's opening with white was weak, and there not being a shred of actual evidence of the cheating. I'm leaning towards the witch hunt theory.

Why should I think otherwise? All grandmasters have had surprise loses now and again, right?

Re:Hans Niemann says he is being unfairly attacked in chess ... by potatototoo99 on Monday September 12, 2022 @06:22AM (#32808079)
He admitted to cheating when he was an IM. To me he forfeited being given the benefit of doubt after that.
Re:Hans Niemann says he is being unfairly attacked in chess ... by robertlagrant on Monday September 12, 2022 @06:37AM (#32808175)
Twice, when he was 12 and 16, in online nonconsequential games. It's not great, but "once a cheat always a cheat" is still wrong.
Re:Hans Niemann says he is being unfairly attacked in chess ... by hellcow on Monday September 12, 2022 @06:43AM (#32808222)
Chess.com made a public statement after his comments, effectively saying he wasn’t honest and had cheated far more extensively than he had admitted. They banned him and said that they shared the evidence with him in private, and it would be up to him to respond to it.

So either chess.com is wrong, despite having a pretty good ability to detect cheating, or Hans is lying. I’m inclined to believe the latter.

Re:Hans Niemann says he is being unfairly attacked in chess ... by addicted on Monday September 12, 2022 @08:34AM (#32809193)
Chess.com is also 25% or so owned by Magnus’s company.

Also, if chess.com had all this evidence why did they wait until after Magnus’s cryptic tweet to act on it? Do they only run their algorithms on games after Magnus makes cryptic comments on players playing the games?

The far more obvious reason is that they took these actions because they don’t want to potentially lose Magnus and his company’s involvement in the tournament.

Re:Hans Niemann says he is being unfairly attacked in chess ... by RandomWorker on Monday September 12, 2022 @08:01AM (#32808852)
This didn’t make sense to me. His reasons for cheating were because he wanted to play higher rated players. However I’ve seen many rated players get up there on like 2 hours. He said he does nothing for two years but play. One side very patient, other very impatient..
Re:Hans Niemann says he is being unfairly attacked in chess ... by faeriechangling on Monday September 12, 2022 @07:18AM (#32808457)
Banned twice to be clear means he cheated far more than twice, it more means there were two major periods in his life where he was cheating and chess.com banning him recently implies there was very likely a third period more recently.

That being said I do think it’s unlikely he cheated in Sinquefield. I should stress that OTB cheating and online cheating are indeed psychologically different. One can be a momentary lapse in judgement which can be a slippery slope, the other requires extensive pre-meditation and is more likely to be detected.

Re:Hans Niemann says he is being unfairly attacked in chess ... by robertlagrant on Monday September 12, 2022 @09:42AM (#32810092)
Cheated twice, not was banned twice.
Re:Hans Niemann says he is being unfairly attacked in chess ... by permo-w on Monday September 12, 2022 @06:50AM (#32808263)
to put that in context, he’s currently 19
Re:Hans Niemann says he is being unfairly attacked in chess ... by badgerbil on Monday September 12, 2022 @06:45AM (#32808235)
He admitted to cheating once in a money prize tournament on chess.com
Re:Hans Niemann says he is being unfairly attacked in chess ... by FartyMcFarter on Monday September 12, 2022 @07:29AM (#32808554)
> To me he forfeited being given the benefit of doubt after that.

Why does he need the benefit of doubt though? There's no evidence or indication that he cheated.

Re:Hans Niemann says he is being unfairly attacked in chess ... by faeriechangling on Monday September 12, 2022 @07:56AM (#32808820)
This is my essential problem with Magnus’s actions. What is he going to walk out of every tournament where somebody who cheated at 16 plays in? Is that how we as a community address the problem of cheating? Passive-aggressive gestures against people caught for cheating in the past that pull uninvolved people into your drama?
Re:Hans Niemann says he is being unfairly attacked in chess ... by Ekaros on Monday September 12, 2022 @08:10AM (#32808937)
And only do that after losing... Which is the part that makes him look bad. On other hand I don't think there is a way to look good in this situation. Other than just to shut up and play.
Re:Hans Niemann says he is being unfairly attacked in chess ... by addicted on Monday September 12, 2022 @08:36AM (#32809205)
Even better, there isn’t even a claim that he cheated.

All we have is Magnus quitting the tournament after losing and cryptically retweeting Moutinho saying “I cannot say more”.

For all we know Magnus quit because he has a bad case of diarrhea and finds it embarrassing to talk about that.

Re:Hans Niemann says he is being unfairly attacked in chess ... by ratg13 on Monday September 12, 2022 @06:14AM (#32807995)
So you are calling chess.com liars, or did you not read the article?
Re:Hans Niemann says he is being unfairly attacked in chess ... by jstanley on Monday September 12, 2022 @06:17AM (#32808028)
It's not obvious to me that chess.com would have any more insight into whether or not Hans Niemann cheated OTB than anyone else would.
Re:Hans Niemann says he is being unfairly attacked in chess ... by honksillet on Monday September 12, 2022 @07:14AM (#32808420)
Cheating is a huge issue in online chess. Sites like chess.com have teams that hunt it. That being said, chess.com should probably release the evidence.
Re:Hans Niemann says he is being unfairly attacked in chess ... by ratg13 on Monday September 12, 2022 @06:21AM (#32808067)
No, but they reviewed his history after the accusations and found him to be lying and misrepresenting himself.

So, if we take chess.com at their word and he is lying, we have a person who is a "former" cheater, who is currently actively lying about the scope of their cheating.

It's not conclusive by any means, but this is a far cry from "nothing to see here"

Re:Hans Niemann says he is being unfairly attacked in chess ... by addicted on Monday September 12, 2022 @08:45AM (#32809292)
Chess.com must be really struggling for money if they have to wait for a non accusation of OTB cheating to run their anti-cheating algorithms on a player’s games.

Which they obviously aren’t. Which means that they have found nothing new in the “review”.

The more obvious answer is that Magnus is pissed, and as a part owner of chess.com and biggest draw in tennis, chess.com wants his continued participation and so is kicking Hans out.

They may have justification for it, but it was clearly not enough of a justification to act on before Magnus decided to get all pissy on losing.

Re:Hans Niemann says he is being unfairly attacked in chess ... by faeriechangling on Monday September 12, 2022 @07:22AM (#32808484)
They are intentionally opaque but I believe chesscom is using some browser tracking like checking if you’re tabbing out as a form of rudimentary anti cheat, and they can detect things like ban evasion and players using an alt.

For the most part they’re working off public information though.

Re:Hans Niemann says he is being unfairly attacked in chess ... by jstanley on Monday September 12, 2022 @07:30AM (#32808565)
But that says nothing about whether he cheated at the Sinquefield Cup.
Re:Hans Niemann says he is being unfairly attacked in chess ... by robertlagrant on Monday September 12, 2022 @06:37AM (#32808180)
They analyse games for unusual moves. See also https://en.chessbase.com/post/cheating-controversy-at-proche...
Re:Hans Niemann says he is being unfairly attacked in chess ... by Steko on Monday September 12, 2022 @06:37AM (#32808176)
Whether Hans cheated OtB is not really the main issue although most commenters get hung up on it.

Occam’s Razor suggests we should strongly believe he didn’t cheat OTB.

The bigger issue is that known cheaters create a cloud of suspicion that puts their opponents at a huge disadvantage. Magnus has spoken about this before - if you think someone might be cheating you can’t concentrate on chess.

This suspicion can be allayed with extra security but that extra security was only deployed after Magnus left.

Re:Hans Niemann says he is being unfairly attacked in chess ... by WastingMyTime89 on Monday September 12, 2022 @07:01AM (#32808338)
> Whether Hans cheated OtB is not really the main issue although most commenters get hung up on it.

It’s not only the main issue. It’s pretty much the sole issue. The only other one I can see is how harshly Magnus should be sanctioned by FIDE for leaving a tournament without a valid reason and his little stint on Twitter.

> The bigger issue is that known cheaters create a cloud of suspicion that puts their opponents at a huge disadvantage. […] This suspicion can be allayed with extra security but that extra security was only deployed after Magnus left.

Magnus knew perfectly well how the game would be played and security was more than adequate before this game. Tournaments takes preventing cheating very seriously and the Sinquefield Cup is no exception.

Re:Hans Niemann says he is being unfairly attacked in chess ... by faeriechangling on Monday September 12, 2022 @07:26AM (#32808520)
>security more than adequate

There are tons of viable methods for cheating. I’ve heard the method of taking a break on a balcony and having a conspirator flash singles at you with car headlights. Or a cheating device in your shoes, or hidden in even more private places.

The point being is that if Hans really wanted to cheat OTB the security measures to stop him are rather inadequate. More theatre than anything.

Do I think he cheated OTB? No but he could have. There will always be that raised suspicion, that extra degree of doubt given Han’s repututation.

Re:Hans Niemann says he is being unfairly attacked in chess ... by Ekaros on Monday September 12, 2022 @07:32AM (#32808577)
Maybe then we should increase security level in these events. Demand all the players to be naked, in locked rooms. With full body cavity search. Just to exclude any possibility. Do not them leave until game is over. Bucket can be provided if needed...
Re:Hans Niemann says he is being unfairly attacked in chess ... by FartyMcFarter on Monday September 12, 2022 @09:50AM (#32810201)
The room also needs to be a Faraday cage, in case a player has a radio device implanted under the skin, or swallowed one.

Don't forget soundproofing to prevent communication via noises. Oh, and enough earthquake proofing to prevent communication via vibrations.

Re:Hans Niemann says he is being unfairly attacked in chess ... by fizzynut on Monday September 12, 2022 @07:45AM (#32808705)
How is it occams razor?

This person has been caught cheating in the past several times including for prize money tournament so it's much more likely they have cheated many other times and were not caught.

There are many ways you could cheat in a OTB match, most people don't understand how easy it would be, one of the ways you can tell someone is cheating is that they don't understand why their move was good, often computer lines are very unintuitive and moves sacrificing a piece without any positional or tactical compensation mean it has found an idea that requires calculating more moves ahead than any human can.

In the post game analysis hans gave, it was terrible, lines that he suggested often being 1 or 2 move blunders, not expanding on insanely complicated positions, but simply claiming "the chess speaks for itself" and misevaluating who is winning in many variations that were shown, often when deciding between two different lines how well you evaluate the end position is critical to picking the correct line.

I don't know if hans did cheat in this tournament, but if he didn't then he was quite actively giving the impression to the other players that he was, which has would give a huge psychological advantage, not because the opponent "can't concentrate on chess", but because if your opponent is offering you pawns or a piece for "free", in a game against a human you will take it, in a game against an engine taking it means you have already lost.

Re:Hans Niemann says he is being unfairly attacked in chess ... by dandanua on Monday September 12, 2022 @07:24AM (#32808505)
> if you think someone might be cheating you can’t concentrate on chess

I wonder how young players can concentrate on chess when they know if they suddenly win over the King then top chess entities can ban them from chess? And the fan base of the King will run after them all over the internet with threats?

Magnus just wanted to be more than a chess King. Evidently, it means being less than a honest human.

Re:Hans Niemann says he is being unfairly attacked in chess ... by faeriechangling on Monday September 12, 2022 @07:39AM (#32808650)
Now I think Magnus is being a bit of a dick but he is the honest one in this dispute and his feelings are at least understandable.
Re:Hans Niemann says he is being unfairly attacked in chess ... by addicted on Monday September 12, 2022 @08:42AM (#32809263)
What is honest about Magnus in this situation?

He hasn’t even said anything. All he has done is taken cryptic unexplained actions and released cryptic unexplained tweets.

If Magnus believes Hans cheated (again, that’s a big if because Magnus hasn’t said anything) and Magnus is actually correct that he cheated, even in that situation Magnus’s entire set of actions since he lost have been highly dishonest, since his entire communication strategy has been to leave cryptic messages that people can read anything into, without yet having made any clarifying statements.

Re:Hans Niemann says he is being unfairly attacked in chess ... by faeriechangling on Monday September 12, 2022 @10:19AM (#32810698)
I have a few choice adjectives to describe Magnus’s behaviour but I just don’t get how it’s dishonest to be cryptic.
Re:Hans Niemann says he is being unfairly attacked in chess ... by microtherion on Monday September 12, 2022 @07:43AM (#32808682)
If something like that is enough to bother Carlsen, one wonders how he would have fared in the circus atmosphere of a 1970s Chess World Championship match: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/World_Chess_Championship_1978
Re:Hans Niemann says he is being unfairly attacked in chess ... by ejb999 on Monday September 12, 2022 @06:26AM (#32808102)
I read the article, and this is what I found:

>>"So far, there has not been any concrete evidence that points to Niemann cheating."

So question is, did you read the article?

Re:Hans Niemann says he is being unfairly attacked in chess ... by faeriechangling on Monday September 12, 2022 @07:57AM (#32808828)
I believe most people understand that chess.com are working off statistics and best faith efforts but can be mistaken.

Moreover chess.com saying they cheated on their website is a wholly separate issue than if Hans cheated OTB. There’s plenty of room to believe that chess.com is being sincere but that Hans may be innocent of both recent allegations, especially the OTB cheating allegation.

Re:Hans Niemann says he is being unfairly attacked in chess ... by Ekaros on Monday September 12, 2022 @06:17AM (#32808025)
Unless they have a proof to present I think there is reasonable case to sue them here.
Re:Hans Niemann says he is being unfairly attacked in chess ... by viscanti on Monday September 12, 2022 @06:28AM (#32808120)
They have unfairly infringed his constitutional right to continue to play games on chess.com after he admitted to cheating on there in the past.
Re:Hans Niemann says he is being unfairly attacked in chess ... by eteos on Monday September 12, 2022 @06:54AM (#32808289)
There is no such thing as a constitutional right to play on chess.com
Re:Hans Niemann says he is being unfairly attacked in chess ... by cinntaile on Monday September 12, 2022 @07:03AM (#32808349)
That's the joke.
Re:Hans Niemann says he is being unfairly attacked in chess ... by Bud on Monday September 12, 2022 @06:53AM (#32808284)
His "constitutional right"? This is a joke, right? Please say yes. Please tell me it doesn't have to be explained that there's no "constitutional right" to use a chess website.