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Re:IRS will look into setting up a free e-filing system by tzs on Wednesday September 07, 2022 @05:17PM (#32757036)
> There have been several proposed bills that would create a pre-filled tax form system, but they always get quietly sidelined by tax industry lobbyists.

Not just industry lobbyists. Another big part is Grover Norquist's "Americans for Tax Reform" and similar groups. They have a lot of influence with about half of Congress.

Here's a PowerPoint presentation [1] Norquist presented to the President's Advisory Panel on Federal Tax Reform in 2005 explaining their opposition to free filing.

It's short so I'll paste the text from each slide here, with the slide titles marked with dashes, so people don't have to find a copy of PowerPoint (or LibreOffice or Keynote, which also can open it fine).

---- Implementing a “Return-Free” Tax Filing Scheme

Presentation to the President’s Advisory Panel on Federal Tax Reform

Grover Norquist

President

Americans for Tax Reform

May 17, 2005

---- The Current System

Tax filing is citizen-based – taxpayers tell the government what they earned and owe

---- Under Return-Free

Tax filing would be government-based – the burden would be on the taxpayer to challenge the government’s findings -- essentially an audit of every single American taxpayer

---- The Fox Would Guard the Henhouse

The same agency that collects taxes would be the tax preparer – the motivation to maximize revenue would dominate both ends of the process

---- Return-Free is a Tax Increase

The true goal is to increase revenue. The government knows few taxpayers will challenge its findings

---- Taxes Should be Visible

Doing taxes keeps citizens aware of the tax burden imposed upon them by the government. A Return-Free scheme would allow the government to raise revenues invisibly

---- The California Example

The State would not guarantee the accuracy of the returns it prepared – the taxpayer was removed from the process, but left with the responsibility

The pilot program achieved 50% less uptake than planned

Comments by CA officials tell us that the true aim was increased revenue

[1] http://govinfo.library.unt.edu/taxreformpanel/meetings/docs/...

Re:IRS will look into setting up a free e-filing system by CrendKing on Wednesday September 07, 2022 @09:41PM (#32759969)
So much BS in these lines. For whatever record IRS already has on me, there is nothing my version of the filing can change. It's not like I can arbitrarily remove an 0 from my AGI and "challenge" IRS to accept my version. Then why demand me to repeat the duplicate information? "keeps citizens aware of the tax burden" - Sure if some people want to be aware, but I'm sure many people don't care about and can't reason about every tax change. Seriously, how many of you ever read a news about a new tax and "talked to your congress representative"? All these are just giant waste of time to majority of the population in the country.
Re:IRS will look into setting up a free e-filing system by akira2501 on Wednesday September 07, 2022 @09:53PM (#32760044)
> there is nothing my version of the filing can change.

The IRS can say "this is not a valid business expense." You can say "it clearly is a valid business expense and should be deducted!"

The IRS can say "this is contractor income." You can say "it clearly is an down payment for subcontractors, you can see the money leaving here!"

These are two obvious problems you could have, and it doesn't even require dishonesty on the IRS' part. Maybe one of your subcontractors is trying to cheat the system and is jamming you up?

Re:IRS will look into setting up a free e-filing system by totony on Wednesday September 07, 2022 @10:12PM (#32760206)
For most people, you won't have these issues. For those that do, what difference does it make to fix it vs making it all on their own?
Re:IRS will look into setting up a free e-filing system by akira2501 on Thursday September 08, 2022 @12:12AM (#32761104)
Well, you've flagged the point. These people, about 10% of the population, that own small businesses are in the minority. They're likely to be an explicit disadvantage in this system. This is a segment that you probably want to use tax policy to protect, not harm.

Further.. it feels like the goalposts have moved on this since it last came up. I don't need the IRS to do my taxes for me, I just need to be able to login to the IRS, pick a form, fill it, and submit it.

E-filing should be free and available to everyone. If you have that, I'm not sure what the value of having it prefilled for me is. In particular, if you just have a single W2 to work from, there could be a 1040-SUPER-EZ where you just enter a serial number from your W2, have it fill from that, and then submit.

You can make this easy without putting everyone under the thumb of the IRS.

Re:IRS will look into setting up a free e-filing system by tpxl on Thursday September 08, 2022 @03:50AM (#32762579)
> They're likely to be an explicit disadvantage in this system

How are they at a disadvantage? Before, they had to do all their filing themselves, after, they have to also do all the filing themselves.

Re:IRS will look into setting up a free e-filing system by iso1631 on Thursday September 08, 2022 @02:59AM (#32762177)
Why would they be at a disadvantage? As a small business don't you keep your business accounts separate to your personal accounts, and have an accountant to at least audit them each year before submission?
Re:IRS will look into setting up a free e-filing system by RustyConsul on Friday September 09, 2022 @11:13AM (#32780199)
I think you are both right. There can be a process for business and personal. The two are different, why lump them together?
Re:IRS will look into setting up a free e-filing system by freedomben on Wednesday September 07, 2022 @10:59PM (#32760612)
> what difference does it make to fix it vs making it all on their own?

That sounds like a big difference to me. The former would require government knowledge of every single transaction you make/receive, while the latter does not.

Re:IRS will look into setting up a free e-filing system by totony on Thursday September 08, 2022 @05:41PM (#32772457)
It isn't. Most people only pay tax on their income, which is already sent to the IRS. Just pre-file it and ask the payee to approve it. If you have more complicated taxes, you can just decline the pre-filed and file your own, like you already do.
Re:IRS will look into setting up a free e-filing system by iso1631 on Thursday September 08, 2022 @02:56AM (#32762157)
> Seriously, how many of you ever read a news about a new tax and "talked to your congress representative"?

You and I don't do that, but rich people and companies do, if a tax increase is going to impact you and I by $100 it's barely worth the email that will be ignored. If a company is going to be hit by $100m, then it's well worth spending $1m to carve out an exception.

> All these are just giant waste of time to majority of the population in the country.

It works too. Tax return day is ingrained in the American Psyche through cultural output (TV), there is a constant undertone in the US that taxes are bad and the government is stealing your money.

Get rid of tax day and make 70% of the country not have to worry about it other than a line on their payslip and as well as making things far more efficient for both the taxpayer and the government (thus reducing government spending), it changes that cultural balance. Few will care about taxes, and that means the pressure to introduce a 0.1 cent drop in tax (which is structured to benefit someone on $150k by say $2 a week, but benefits people like the Koch Brothers by $200k a week) goes away.

Re:IRS will look into setting up a free e-filing system by jandrese on Wednesday September 07, 2022 @10:13PM (#32760210)
This is such a load of horsecrap. If you need to file deductions then you do that, the government just pre-fills everything they already know. If you want to hire an accountant to be creative with your exceptions you can still do that.
Re:IRS will look into setting up a free e-filing system by fnordpiglet on Wednesday September 07, 2022 @11:26PM (#32760796)
The nice thing about Norquist is you can choose an optimal policy set by simply doing the exact opposite of everything he says.
Re:IRS will look into setting up a free e-filing system by iso1631 on Thursday September 08, 2022 @02:48AM (#32762085)
In the UK the vast majority of national tax take is either baked into the price of goods (things like VAT, alcohol, petrol taxes) or taken off by your employer.

Each month I get a payslip saying I've earned £xxxx and £yyyy has been taken in various taxes and other deductions (from pension to [optional] healthcare, some of which comes off pre tax, some post tax), and the balance is transferred into my nominated bank account each month.

At the end of the year I get a summary from my employer called a P60, which shows how much tax I've paid.

If I have complex needs I then have 9 months to go to a gov.uk website, fill in that data, and either get a rebate or a bill. If it's a bill then they adjust my tax code (which defines the deductions) the next year it takes about 10 minutes (or I can just pay straight away), if it's a rebate they pay it direct to my account (or they can adjust next years deductions)

For self employed people then, but you likely have an accountant who handles everything, and pay yourself via dividends, making large enough tax savings to easily pay accountant fees (which for a small business is pretty low)

I don't consider tax a burden, I consider it the cost of living in a western society. I don't have to pay them - I could move to Svalbard or a country that would take me and pay taxes in that country. Even Americans can do this (and get rid of their US citizenship - saying "no I don't want the benefits of American society")

Re:IRS will look into setting up a free e-filing system by stephen_g on Wednesday September 07, 2022 @09:51PM (#32760029)
Very interesting - basically none of that is the case in most countries that have a pre-filled system...
Re:IRS will look into setting up a free e-filing system by yowzadave on Thursday September 08, 2022 @01:43AM (#32761621)
This is a point that I return to often—on so many issues, Americans feel compelled to argue using speculation informed by their particular ideologies, when there is no need to speculate. We can just observe the effects of various policies around the world, assuming of course that we are somewhat curious and willing to be proven wrong by reality.