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Re:California Declares Grid Emergency by tbihl on Thursday September 01, 2022 @10:20AM (#32676584)
>At some point, we are going to realize "green" non nuclear energy doesn't work.

Not only this, but while making other aspects of life worse or more expensive, it will also make the environment worse. Anyone who feels 'middle class' in CA has enormous buying power for consumer goods, and an obvious one for this problem is a gas/propane generator. When the accepted wisdom is for all the California suburbanites to have generators as buffers against unreliable power grids, the environment loses.

Re:California Declares Grid Emergency by jabart on Thursday September 01, 2022 @10:26AM (#32676692)
Mid-west resident here. You think the power grid problems are only in California? Texas has their own. Mid-west can't handle some major wind or ice storms. One storm years ago I was without power for 7 days, some people in the rural area for up to a month. Solar would have been great since we didn't need a 8kw gasoline generator 24 hours a day for a 200-300w load.
Re:California Declares Grid Emergency by cavisne on Thursday September 01, 2022 @10:35AM (#32676874)
There is a difference between a storm physically disrupting the grid in the mid west (breaking lines), and a predictable heatwave exceeding the capacity of the grid.
Re:California Declares Grid Emergency by jabart on Thursday September 01, 2022 @10:53AM (#32677153)
Re:California Declares Grid Emergency by kkfx on Thursday September 01, 2022 @04:45PM (#32682907)
In winter 200-300W load? How do you heat your house?

I'm from EU, a relatively "cold" (French Alps at 1030m) place but definitively not that cold (peak cold -25℃/-13℉ in early morning, -8/10℃ (14/18℉) during the day between January and February), with a new home witch means well insulated, with a proper VMC, water-water heat-pump etc, and well... The MINIMUM load during night and early morning is around 1kW. IF Sun shine during the day, well, the load is not much an issue from 9h30 AM to 3 PM, but for the rest is on grid.

Of course old homes heat with gas/oil/wood/* so need far less electricity (still IME a bit more than 2-300W base load though) BUT apart of wood coupled with large hot water storage (to been able to sleep instead of charging wood every hour) if you are not living in a relatively cold place I doubt you have a 6-12 month gas/oil/wood reserve at home and during such "cold episode", being very rare so far, getting new "fuel" would probably be not that easier...

I've made a small p.v. with lithium storage as a very expensive UPS for the house, being relatively autonomous in summer I hardly can be autonomous in winter: in some RARE winters like the last one where Sun shine almost all day I can survive a day to the next cutting the heating depending on battery SOC, but in case of a day without enough Sun light I'm still on grid or on emergency generator backup... Having a real autonomy IME is more a dream than something feasible, at least something feasible at human prices because spending the price of a house just in batteries who might last at maximum 10 years for some rare episode is not really a sustainable price...

Re:California Declares Grid Emergency by jabart on Friday September 02, 2022 @11:56AM (#32692303)
Natural Gas is available during a power outage. Also our winters have nightly lows in the 30s but during the day high of 60s plus people and solar radiation and you don't have to heat the house much. This is also after a lot of insulation and spray foam in areas that in the 1970s they never insulated and leaked air.
Re:California Declares Grid Emergency by kkfx on Friday September 02, 2022 @01:34PM (#32693492)
Oh, ok, so you are in a place where heating is not a issue in general, but you cite Texas disaster and that's relevant because normally I imaging heating is a non-issue in Texas but last year...

About natural gas: if the outage is widespread I doubt you can get it: who pump it in the pipeline without energy?

Re:California Declares Grid Emergency by jabart on Saturday September 03, 2022 @09:40AM (#32701801)
Texas homes were not insulated well to handle those conditions which made it worse. Some water heaters were outside and with the power out lost their frost protection as well. In the US, there are different climate zones which change how the house is built with mine being in a more colder climate it can handle things well down to about -20F and then it has issues.

Natural gas has not gone out here for a while and is a much larger issue if it did. Gas company would have to come out and lit all the gas appliances. I assume they spend a lot to prevent that cost and can use themselves to power their infrastructure.

Re:California Declares Grid Emergency by kkfx on Saturday September 03, 2022 @06:01PM (#32706545)
> Texas homes were not insulated well to handle those conditions which made it worse.

Sure, but they were (and still are?) like so because normal climate conditions do not demand that. Being able to sustain "any climate" is damn expensive, giving a certain margin while designing a home is natural, the home itself have a value, but going much further it's simply too costly at best. Now, insulation is good BOTH for hot and cold, but for instance if with mild insulation and p.v. you can live well because it's hot only during the sunny day you hardly invest in real insulation.

Beside that during a snowstorm a p.v. does not produce so if you have a battery you can recharge it on a generator, but no more than that. It's far cheaper to run than a 24/7 generator online, but it's still roughly expensive and demand a significant quantity of fuel you normally do not have at home.

About natural gas, well, I suppose their infra are designed to be "a bit" disaster proof, but how much and how in realty it's hard to tell up front. I remember for instance that a day in my original town a flood happen and for some reasons water penetrated the piping infra. Gas completely stops for two days. They have had some water pumping systems for condensation and other phenomenon but it wasn't ever used and even those who have designed it have designed for clear water without mood and sand. Apparently an event that break a pipe and push water in the net was not much assessed. Most physical infra, even critical ones, never have nor can afford doing Chaos Monkey things on their systems...

Re:California Declares Grid Emergency by Spivak on Thursday September 01, 2022 @10:29AM (#32676763)
> Mid-west can't handle some major wind or ice storms

Been though those, I don't really think "storm knocks out power lines" is the kind of problem people are talking about when it comes to grid reliability though. No amount of coal is going to keep the line from getting cut.

Re:California Declares Grid Emergency by epistasis on Thursday September 01, 2022 @02:42PM (#32681058)
A largely renewables+storage grid will help these sorts of outages greatly, however. Most major grid outages can be traced back to things like squirrels bringing down transmission.

Once we have a bunch of storage, and are used to doing grid ops on lots of intermittent generation sources, grid reliability will go up because a power line going down will have lots of potential mitigations that are not possible today.

Re:California Declares Grid Emergency by DoingIsLearning on Thursday September 01, 2022 @11:38AM (#32677974)
> When the accepted wisdom is for all the California suburbanites to have generators as buffers against unreliable power grids, the environment loses.

I am not claiming you are wrong but this sounds like something I would expect to read as a scenario in an upper middle class southwest african nation. Not something in one of the world's largest economies.

Re:California Declares Grid Emergency by epistasis on Thursday September 01, 2022 @02:42PM (#32681068)
This is not accepted wisdom, and I don't know anybody with a generator. Perhaps I am not "upper" enough, however.
Re:California Declares Grid Emergency by DoingIsLearning on Thursday September 01, 2022 @04:10PM (#32682398)
I think OP meant it as a hypothetical. As in, if blackouts become a recurring event then a lot of people will solve it by throwing money at the problem. The issue is that diesel generator emissions are extremely harmful for the environment.
Re:California Declares Grid Emergency by travisporter on Thursday September 01, 2022 @10:29AM (#32676761)
More optimistically, they would buy solar+storage which would mitigate the problem
Re:California Declares Grid Emergency by EricE on Thursday September 01, 2022 @10:36AM (#32676888)
You have cost effective storage? Why are you being stingy with it - share already!
Re:California Declares Grid Emergency by dangrossman on Thursday September 01, 2022 @02:39PM (#32680999)
Yes, the electric car in my driveway, and in millions of Californians' driveways. My car's battery is as big as 6 Tesla Powerwalls and can power a house for days.
Re:California Declares Grid Emergency by kkfx on Thursday September 01, 2022 @04:54PM (#32683040)
Really? So far I see no car's ready integrated with home p.v., some experiments do exists (Toyota) and some LIMITED commercial cars (Ford F150) offer something, but nothing is really ready.

I have a self-made p.v. with storage, I dream to being able just to integrate car's inverter power demand with p.v. inverter available capacity: most cars do not even offer MQTT/ModBUS communications to slowly regulate power demands. Just to regulate my hot water heater (a modern Daikin heat-pump) depending on p.v. available energy I have to craft some absurd home-assistant automation because NO ONE at Daikin really know what does it means "a solar-ready heat-pump" and no one who produce p.v. inverters really think that perhaps it's a good idea offering a good API to regulate devices in the house for maximum self-consumption.

Potentially we can improve self-consumption by more than 10% with just let's say +10USD per high-power device, no such thing exists on sale. The best you can get are "smart switches" who power-on or off devices with crappy automation and power routers with a smart meter if you have to limit injection to the grid.

Potentially cars can be used coupled with a fixed p.v. system and a small storage (for when you are not at home, but still need power for fridge and co) with a canbus open and universal API. Potentially. I'm curious if even find ONE BEV on sale who do that just with an open API...

Re:California Declares Grid Emergency by dangrossman on Thursday September 01, 2022 @07:00PM (#32684493)
The ecosystem isn't there yet to just plug a car into the wall and have it power a home. But I've been using my EVs as home battery backups during power outages for 8 years now. I don't have any of that fancy stuff, just a 2000 watt inverter that gets clamped onto the car's 12V battery under the hood, and an extension cord I run into my kitchen to plug in a power strip for the fridge/freezer, TV, wifi router/ONT and laptop charger. The car's DC-DC converter can produce around 3000 watts, but I never approach that as I don't want to damage it. My VW ID.4 theoretically is V2H capable according to the advertising, just waiting for someone to sell a box that plugs into the CCS port to make it happen.
Re:California Declares Grid Emergency by kkfx on Friday September 02, 2022 @01:32PM (#32693463)
That's a backup for fridge, but hardly for a home: how about cooking? heating/cooling?

BTW the "ecosystem" is not there IMO because no one who design such systems use them, really. I have a modern Daikin hot water system formally "integrated with the solar" etc. It's not integrated AT ALL, people who sell it do not even know how to use it's crappy ModBUS interface and that is designed just to tweak it's functioning based on the current energy price from the grid NOT depending on a p.v. system and that's one of the state-of-art new gears...

Essentially IMO no one have ever tried to tackle nor maximum self-consumption nor autonomy.

And this is the very first issue. The second issue is that nobody ever try to push standards. They sold crap in a state in the past we would have call "early stage prototype" as a finished product.

Given actual prices no real revolution can happen in technical terms.

Re:California Declares Grid Emergency by hedora on Thursday September 01, 2022 @11:32AM (#32677865)
These are totally worth it, and are one of the more expensive options on the market:

https://enphase.com/homeowners/home-solar-batteries

Re:California Declares Grid Emergency by falcolas on Thursday September 01, 2022 @11:17AM (#32677601)
There's lots of cost effective storage methods (compressed air, compressed CO2, pumped hydro, inertial/iron oxide/lithium ion/sand/hydrogen batteries, and so forth), but the costs are all mostly up front, requiring major investments that aren't happening.

Some of them also require non-trivial time to build.

Re:California Declares Grid Emergency by travisporter on Thursday September 01, 2022 @02:11PM (#32680608)
well no, but parent mentions buying power so presumably it's not required to be cost effective
Re:California Declares Grid Emergency by thepasswordis on Thursday September 01, 2022 @10:24AM (#32676651)
California made those small gas generators illegal.
Re:California Declares Grid Emergency by hedora on Thursday September 01, 2022 @11:30AM (#32677823)
They only banned ones that don't have NOx emissions controls and that are are easily replaced with portable batteries. Here is the text of the bill:

https://leginfo.legislature.ca.gov/faces/billTextClient.xhtm...

My reading suggests that this won't impact anything that you should consider plugging your house into. Instead, it's targeting stuff like this:

https://www.harborfreight.com/generators-engines/generators/...

However, that model is twice as expensive as the one harbor freight was selling before the bill passed. The old one wasn't an inverter, so the frequency / voltage would drift around when the load changed, and couldn't be used with computers (or modern appliances). It wouldn't surprise me if they slapped a catalytic converter on it while they were upgrading the electronics.

Re:California Declares Grid Emergency by MerelyMortal on Thursday September 01, 2022 @10:31AM (#32676788)
To only purchase within the state, or bring in generators purchased in another state, or to operate already-purchased generators?
Re:California Declares Grid Emergency by nilespotter on Thursday September 01, 2022 @10:40AM (#32676941)
Purchase within the state
Re:California Declares Grid Emergency by nilespotter on Thursday September 01, 2022 @10:39AM (#32676927)
You have until 01/2024 to buy one
Re:California Declares Grid Emergency by edmcnulty101 on Thursday September 01, 2022 @10:21AM (#32676619)
What a lesson in unintended consequences of overbearing policy.
Re:California Declares Grid Emergency by travisporter on Thursday September 01, 2022 @10:27AM (#32676723)
Deregulation ~= tragedy of the commons
Re:California Declares Grid Emergency by EricE on Thursday September 01, 2022 @10:40AM (#32676960)
lol - overbearing policy restricts to the least common denominator with no opportunity for innovation.

Solar and Wind have been the biggest suppressor for developing longer term base load. Why would anyone who is remotely sane take a risk to develop base load power when politicians shift priorities on whatever the flavor of the day is. This has been going on for decades which is why we are now where we are. Base load generation takes a significant commitment and requires long term planning, but current politics place a high penalty on anything requiring a long term commitment.

Talk about a tragedy of commons :p

Re:California Declares Grid Emergency by travisporter on Thursday September 01, 2022 @02:08PM (#32680554)
That's a very fair point, and to be clear, nuclear/geothermal/hydro baseload should be our top priority. But I fear regulation of things like fly ash, co2 emissions will be considered overbearing and then what's stopping fossil fuels?