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Re:Cloudflare's abuse policies and approach by chc on Wednesday August 31, 2022 @11:50AM (#32663858)
The group they're trying to target here is a terrorist group. Not even in a metaphorical sense. It's people who try to harass random transgender people to the point of suicide or murder.
Re:Cloudflare's abuse policies and approach by 3sGPqEu59EGDFUn on Wednesday August 31, 2022 @12:01PM (#32664104)
If they are a terrorist group (or otherwise doing something "wrong"), then the appropriate means to deal with that is courts and law enforcement, not a CDN.
Re:Cloudflare's abuse policies and approach by aeturnum on Wednesday August 31, 2022 @12:58PM (#32665046)
No one is claiming that, in a perfect world, this would be Cloudflare's problem. Some other authority would step in and take care of it I suppose.

But we don't live in a perfect world. It's a pretty weak response to say "this should not be their problem" - because, for a bunch of reasons, it is their problem.

There are bigger, harder questions along the lines of "how do we as a society deal with this kind of issue." Cloudflare does not need to solve the general case before it deal with the specific actions of this specific website - and the desire to solve the general case is not a defense against confronting the specifics.

Re:Cloudflare's abuse policies and approach by f38zf5vdt on Wednesday August 31, 2022 @12:24PM (#32664490)
IANAL. KF appears to me to be woefully in violation of US Federal law since it is a forum more or less dedicated to cyberstalking.

> The federal law concerning cyberstalking is 18 U.S.C. § 2261A(2). It provides that it’s unlawful for any person to engage in a course of conduct through electronic communication that makes another individual reasonably fear death or serious bodily harm to themselves or another (including a pet or service animal). The behavior may also be illegal if it causes or could cause “substantial emotional distress.” A course of conduct means two or more acts suggesting that the individual has or will continue the behavior.

https://www.duimiamilawyer.com/blog/2020/12/is-there-a-feder...

The decision of investigators to turn a blind eye to it over the past decade is curious.

Re:Cloudflare's abuse policies and approach by banannaise on Wednesday August 31, 2022 @01:25PM (#32665478)
This assumes that law enforcement is both effective and fair. It is neither.

"Police exist, therefore nobody except the police is allowed to do anything about anyone's bad behavior" is a terrible argument.

Re:Cloudflare's abuse policies and approach by autoexec on Wednesday August 31, 2022 @04:27PM (#32667902)
Our justice system is far from perfect, but it's better to have due process and transparency than to have corporations or mobs selectively enforcing "the law" however and whenever they see fit.

There's no reason to think that just because police exist people can't do anything about other people's bad behavior though. For example, when someone says something you don't like you aren't allowed to silence them because that violates their rights, but you are allowed to use your own rights to speak out against them and what they've been saying.

Crimes should be dealt with by our legal systems, but there are plenty of other ways to deal with things that simply offend us.

Re:Cloudflare's abuse policies and approach by paganel on Wednesday August 31, 2022 @01:39PM (#32665689)
It is the best argument we can have in a liberal regime. Anything else would lead us directly to tyranny, and not the metaphorical one.
Re:Cloudflare's abuse policies and approach by amrocha on Wednesday August 31, 2022 @04:06PM (#32667659)
Spoken like someone who has never had to distrust police in their life
Re:Cloudflare's abuse policies and approach by wahnfrieden on Wednesday August 31, 2022 @01:36PM (#32665641)
pigs and domestic terrorists are the same group https://knock-la.com/tradition-of-violence-lasd-gang-history...

and they collude secretly with corporations to advance their powers mutually https://www.eff.org/deeplinks/2021/06/emails-show-amazon-rin...

I don’t ask someone to shoot their own foot to protect myself

Re:Cloudflare's abuse policies and approach by rvz on Wednesday August 31, 2022 @12:26PM (#32664529)
They're right you know, report them to the authorities. Not to an entity like Cloudflare.
Re:Cloudflare's abuse policies and approach by chc on Wednesday August 31, 2022 @12:09PM (#32664253)
I agree, I wish we had a law enforcement apparatus that cared about protecting transgender people. But we don't have a clear path to that at the moment, and in the meantime we want to avoid more people being killed. Thus you have people trying to argue for more informal procedures that revolve around social pressure, telling companies basically "This is obviously way beyond the pale, you should not associate yourself with this." It's not a good state for things to be in, but pretending things are better than they are is an even worse solution.
Re:Cloudflare's abuse policies and approach by throwrqX on Wednesday August 31, 2022 @12:31PM (#32664626)
What evidence is there for the law enforcement apparatus not protecting transgender people in this particular case? Have their been similar cases for cisgender people where the law enforcement apparatus has cared more? I am not sure saying we need mob action to stop other mob action is a good long term solution.
Re:Cloudflare's abuse policies and approach by FrecklySunbeam on Wednesday August 31, 2022 @12:39PM (#32664764)
Law enforcement is the tool being used to do the violence ffs, they’re not protecting anyone
Re:Cloudflare's abuse policies and approach by throwrqX on Wednesday August 31, 2022 @01:13PM (#32665298)
Law enforcement are doing the right thing responding to potentially emergency situations. The problem isn't that they are responding to SWATing, the problem is people calling them in when there is no emergency.
Re:Cloudflare's abuse policies and approach by inquirerGeneral on Wednesday August 31, 2022 @01:01PM (#32665106)
Yeah make up your facts better.
Re:Cloudflare's abuse policies and approach by FrecklySunbeam on Wednesday August 31, 2022 @01:03PM (#32665145)
Re:Cloudflare's abuse policies and approach by chc on Wednesday August 31, 2022 @02:40PM (#32666523)
I can't think of any instances of people being persecuted for being cisgender. But I suppose you can draw a reasonable comparison to The Pirate Bay, which has received much more attention from law enforcement for cutting into record labels' profits than Kiwi Farms has for terrorizing queer people.
Re:Cloudflare's abuse policies and approach by throwrqX on Wednesday August 31, 2022 @06:08PM (#32668979)
Things involving industry and large sums of money have always gotten police attention easier. What is in question here is regarding discrimination against transgender individuals compared to cisgender ones with regards to harassment.
Re:Cloudflare's abuse policies and approach by amrocha on Wednesday August 31, 2022 @04:05PM (#32667651)
Jesus Christ dude, there's people dying here and you're arguing over technicalities. The site is still up!! No one's been arrested! You'd rather people keep dying while you argue that both sides are bad, while one side is killing people?
Re:Cloudflare's abuse policies and approach by throwrqX on Wednesday August 31, 2022 @06:14PM (#32669026)
No, I'd rather people report things to the proper law enforcement authorities if they believe there is criminal activity going on instead of trying to pressure CloudFlare into taking down websites for their moral or political beliefs. They have already resisted pressure from Ukraine regarding Russia which no offense is a directly killing far more people than Kiwifarms ever indirectly will.
Re:Cloudflare's abuse policies and approach by throwrqX on Wednesday August 31, 2022 @06:06PM (#32668951)
Key words in my post were in this particular case. Neither links talk about any similar cases regarding cisgender people and harassment either.
Re:Cloudflare's abuse policies and approach by wahnfrieden on Wednesday August 31, 2022 @08:34PM (#32670221)
k
Re:Cloudflare's abuse policies and approach by paganel on Wednesday August 31, 2022 @01:38PM (#32665666)
Is Homeland Security actively following and prosecuting that group you mentioned? I mean, on account of them being allegedly "terrorists".
Re:Cloudflare's abuse policies and approach by Longlius on Wednesday August 31, 2022 @03:31PM (#32667185)
KF's policy is very straightforward - do not engage with the people involved. Doing so or conspiring to do so is grounds for an immediate sitewide permaban.
[dead]
Re:Cloudflare's abuse policies and approach by chc on Wednesday August 31, 2022 @12:13PM (#32664309)
That was not my definition. Kiwi Farms will post their target's private info, the private info of everyone their target knows, send death threats to their target and their family, report false crimes to try and get SWAT teams to kill their target, etc. Ben Shapiro doesn't seem like a good person and I suspect he is probably sympathetic to many terrorists, but he is not himself a terrorist as far as I know.
Re:Cloudflare's abuse policies and approach by tlonny on Wednesday August 31, 2022 @12:26PM (#32664536)
What's your source on the SWAT-ing + death threats originating from Kiwi Farms?

My understanding of that website is that it is moderated based on the philosophy of "look, don't touch". Your statement runs contrary to this...

Re:Cloudflare's abuse policies and approach by chc on Wednesday August 31, 2022 @12:36PM (#32664720)
They are the top suspects in the swatting of the Twitch streamer Keffals and Rep. Marjorie Taylor Greene just in the past month. There have been many news articles about it — I would suggest Googling and picking the source that seems most credible to you, since I've found linking specific sources tends to lead to people debating the source itself. (I'll be honest, I'm skeptical on the MTG one, but they are still the top suspects there.)
Re:Cloudflare's abuse policies and approach by tlonny on Wednesday August 31, 2022 @12:54PM (#32664994)
I think expunging a website from the internet for "suspected" involvement in crime is a huge overreach.

I think such a posture would encourage some to commit "false flag" SWAT-ing as a means to silence those they disagree with.

SWAT-ing is a very serious crime, and if they are "top suspects" as you claim, I expect LE would be robustly investigating them.

Thoughts?

Re:Cloudflare's abuse policies and approach by pseudo0 on Wednesday August 31, 2022 @01:25PM (#32665485)
I read about the Marjorie Taylor Green incident. The swatter apparently claimed to be a specific moderator from the website (by username, not actual name), while commiting a serious felony against a prominent politician... If anything, it looks like a two-for-one swatting, getting the moderator and the site a visit from the feds in addition to Marjorie Taylor Green.
Re:Cloudflare's abuse policies and approach by Karunamon on Wednesday August 31, 2022 @12:37PM (#32664739)
The fact that they post dox (names, addresses, other personally identifying information) makes that a pretty weak defense in my mind. If you write up this long post about how someone is a terrible human being and include their PII right next to it, what happens next isn't exactly hard to guess. And these people are not stupid, they know what will happen next even if they don't actually ever harass the person.

I wouldn't have a problem with them discussing other people among themselves, but including addresses and phone numbers and such is such a bad faith "I'm not touching you I'm not touching you ha ha ha" that I wouldn't mind seeing them burned down on principle.

Re:Cloudflare's abuse policies and approach by mmmpop on Wednesday August 31, 2022 @01:04PM (#32665154)
So you don't sympathize with a single "terrorist" on the planet? Don't lie.