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Re:We are all nerds: The literary works of Neal Stephenson by notahacker on Sunday August 28, 2022 @02:55PM (#32630942)
The thing about the Diamond Age is the first half is a brilliant book full of great ideas that seems to be set for a complex and enthralling finale, and the second half is an absolute mess that ruins the first half. Only book I can think of comparable in that respect is Stranger in a Strange Land (note to sci-fi authors: don't think you can tie the plot of your killer high-concept idea together with the first thing that comes to mind, especially not if the first thing that comes to mind is the need to come up with creative reasons for your characters to have orgies)
Re:We are all nerds: The literary works of Neal Stephenson by jamestimmins on Sunday August 28, 2022 @03:22PM (#32631217)
I accidentally purchased the "uncut" version of Stranger in a Strange Land, which included 85,000 more words that were edited out of the original release.

If ever there was a book that didn't need an extra 85,000 words...

Re:We are all nerds: The literary works of Neal Stephenson by number6 on Sunday August 28, 2022 @04:28PM (#32631762)
I read Stranger in a Strange Land in my youth and it was mind-blowing. The unnecessary Lewdness was nice in puberty but looking back today it's more like a thing of its time thing...
Re:We are all nerds: The literary works of Neal Stephenson by stevenwoo on Monday August 29, 2022 @01:16AM (#32635009)
I, too, read it when younger and thought there was a lot of sex in Stranger in a Strange Land until I read Dahlgren where there is a lot less thinking and talking about it and more just step by step descriptions of every act, and that book came about fifteen years later.
Re:We are all nerds: The literary works of Neal Stephenson by cainxinth on Sunday August 28, 2022 @03:36PM (#32631327)
I sorta agree, but I also think one of the reasons that the first part is stronger has something to do with the protagonist’s age. When she’s just an innocent little girl, you feel incredible tension every time she is threatened. As she gets older and more capable, the danger doesn’t connect as viscerally to the reader (in my case anyway).

But, warts and all, still one of my favorite novels ever.

Re:We are all nerds: The literary works of Neal Stephenson by notahacker on Sunday August 28, 2022 @04:04PM (#32631575)
Agree it's inevitable that it loses some tension and sweetness (and the role of the all-important Primer), but it's more that Stephenson just takes her in terrible directions (she decides to work in a brothel dictating BDSM fantasies, then she gets violated by rebels, then she unironically becomes the Victorian colonialist ideal of the great White Leader the Chinese girls need) and the others in even worse directions (disappear from the narrative, die a pathos-free death, wake up after 12 years of drug induced orgies and have no emotional reaction whatsoever but a compelling need to wander into a pace-killing subplot about a theatre). The plotting is clunky, I'm not sure the writing is as good despite a few nice moments and the whole Drummers orgy-computer concept is best reserved for another book, preferably unpublished.
Re:We are all nerds: The literary works of Neal Stephenson by tialaramex on Sunday August 28, 2022 @08:15PM (#32633492)
Hmmm. Tequila (Nell's mother) vanishes which is weird (it's plot necessary, but in reading and re-reading I don't think she's even firmly written out, she just vanishes)

But the other recipients of the Primer both do something it's just that this novel isn't about them, indeed maybe the point is that their paths diverge so enormously. Princess Nell is exactly what Nell intended from the get go. We don't see Elizabeth and Fiona's first interactions with the Primer, it seems safe to assume they do not begin by escaping from a terrible castle since their lives are comfortable and there's nothing to escape from.

To the reader perhaps it seems like Fiona doesn't amount to anything, but we're not shown very much about it, and it may well be that to her this is every bit as much what she wanted out of life as Princess Nell's outcome. All we know about Elizabeth is that she joins CryptNet. The novel never even tells us (beyond hints) what CryptNet is about. It tells us what CryptNet claims to be doing, and it tells us that nobody believes that.

You could read it as the other two girls fail, but I'd argue that from what Elizabeth's grandfather says at the start, and what the Constable tells Nell later, we can see that the grown-ups have a sense that actually conforming to somebody else's expectations is exactly what they don't see as a path to success. All the parents want what parents so often want - younger copies of themselves, but that's stupid. Nell isn't what Tequila (or Bud) wanted, Fiona isn't what Hackworth wanted, and Elizabeth plainly isn't what her mother and father seem determined to make of her, which suits her grandfather down to the ground.

Re:We are all nerds: The literary works of Neal Stephenson by notahacker on Monday August 29, 2022 @05:10AM (#32636146)
I get the point that they're not conforming to expectations, which is fine, but having set them up to be observed failing to conform to expectations, we get an "It's ten years later now. Elizabeth's disappeared to join mysterious hackers. Fiona's had no father for a decade but we won't dwell on that, here's a novella about a night out at Dramatic Personae instead. Oh, and Nell's brother who was super important at the beginning died too, poor him. And Nell's ignored the the messages about empowerment and science education messages but been inspired by all the racting to checks notes make up kinks for middle aged men, and we're not even going to riff on the clash with the values of the 'Victorian' middle class upbringing she was donated that implies"
Re:We are all nerds: The literary works of Neal Stephenson by the__alchemist on Sunday August 28, 2022 @11:13PM (#32634416)
More to this point, you could imagine 2 alternative versions of the Diamond Age, exploring the same world, but from the eyes of each of Fiona and Elizabeth. Nell's story isn't necessarily more interesting, and her outcome wasn't necessarily more successful: She's the one of the 3 the book focused on.

Cryptnet and Dramatis Personae were both intriguing, mysterious organizations that were written to imply there's much beneath their surfaces the plot only touched.

Re:We are all nerds: The literary works of Neal Stephenson by aoanla on Sunday August 28, 2022 @05:25PM (#32632208)
Yeah, I think the dissonance I fundamentally had with the ending of The Diamond Age is that it seems to not have any sense of irony (or any concept that, maybe, the Seed might not be the awful idea that his protagonists are trying to sell us that it is, for example).
Re:We are all nerds: The literary works of Neal Stephenson by number6 on Sunday August 28, 2022 @04:25PM (#32631736)
I can totally relate. Despite the shortcomings I love the book; there are parts better to be forgotten though...

I secretly dream of a distributed republic.

Re:We are all nerds: The literary works of Neal Stephenson by notahacker on Sunday August 28, 2022 @04:47PM (#32631906)
I secretly dream of discovering a second half of the book I enjoyed as much as the first...
Re:We are all nerds: The literary works of Neal Stephenson by number6 on Tuesday August 30, 2022 @02:01AM (#32647102)
We should feed the first half into an AI and ask for the second half
Re:We are all nerds: The literary works of Neal Stephenson by Gatsky on Monday August 29, 2022 @06:26AM (#32636512)
I think you can write a book to have a good beginning, and you can write a book to have a good ending, but it is very hard to do both.

William Gibson books are all about the ending I find. The beginnings are positively disorienting most of the time. The book with the best ending I've ever read was Musashi. The entire book is building up to the finale which is almost unbearably dramatic. But it starts pretty slowly.

The Magus is a book with a well connected beginning and end, almost seamless if you like. Although it employs a trick to make this happen, where the first person narrator is possessed of preternatural insight into what is going on, which streamlines the story. But Fowles is a pretty exceptional writer.

Re:We are all nerds: The literary works of Neal Stephenson by nixlim on Sunday August 28, 2022 @06:26PM (#32632674)
This. Absolutely the feeling I had after reading both of them