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Re:Why are D-sharp and E-flat considered to be two different... by wizofaus on Sunday August 28, 2022 @08:22AM (#32627834)
String players have no choice but to learn equal temperament as the vast majority of the time they're playing alongside other musicians, and it's what modern ears (since the late 18th century) expect to hear. It'd be a rare violinist these days that could actually accurately play something in any sort of intonation based entirely on just intervals. Note that almost any sort of vibrato is likely to "smother" the pitch difference between equal and just temperaments anyway - e.g. an equal temperament fifth is 2 cents off a natural fifth, but vibrato can cover a 50 to 70 cent range (opera singers often go over 100, which I find unpleasant to listen to personally - it's basically a trill!)
Re:Why are D-sharp and E-flat considered to be two different... by chimeracoder on Sunday August 28, 2022 @10:37AM (#32628713)
> String players have no choice but to learn equal temperament as the vast majority of the time they're playing alongside other musicians, and it's what modern ears (since the late 18th century) expect to hear. It'd be a rare violinist these days that could actually accurately play something in any sort of intonation based entirely on just intervals.

That's not true at all. A lot of string players learn to play in orchestras or chamber style, which means they're only playing with other stringed instruments, and they absolutely are taught dynamic tuning by ear, which uses just intervals.

Re:Why are D-sharp and E-flat considered to be two different... by wizofaus on Sunday August 28, 2022 @11:48AM (#32629305)
I did say "based entirely on just intervals". But as a composer I most certainly wouldn't want string players choosing their temperament based on whether there happened to be other instruments in the ensemble capable of the same. And it sounds off for music that doesn't largely sit in a single key signature anyway, which is arguably most music composed since Beethoven. Though I did just read a classic example of where just intervals are often used is the opening of Das Rheingold, that sits on an E flat (not D#!) major chord for several minutes.
Re:Why are D-sharp and E-flat considered to be two different... by chimeracoder on Sunday August 28, 2022 @11:54AM (#32629345)
> But as a composer I most certainly wouldn't want string players choosing their temperament based on whether there happened to be other instruments in the ensemble capable of the same.

This is a weird way of looking at it. String players aren't sitting there consciously thinking of their tuning as they play - they're doing it by ear in real-time. The tuning they use will be the one that best harmonizes with the other notes being played at that moment.

> And it sounds off for music that doesn't largely sit in a single key signature anyway,

That's actually where the ability to adapt tuning dynamically is the most powerful - it allows you to be in tune relative to other pitches being played in that moment, not just in tune relative to some absolute benchmark that nobody is going to be able to hear anyway (because almost nobody has perfect absolute pitch).

Re:Why are D-sharp and E-flat considered to be two different... by wizofaus on Sunday August 28, 2022 @12:02PM (#32629418)
Sure, I imagine it's not dissimilar to how we sing as choristers. But I've played on keyboards tuned to exact just temperament in a particular key and it starts to sound very weird very quickly the moment you veer off the reference key signature.
Re:Why are D-sharp and E-flat considered to be two different... by chimeracoder on Sunday August 28, 2022 @12:30PM (#32629655)
> But I've played on keyboards tuned to exact just temperament in a particular key

Well, that's your problem. You're using a keyboard, which doesn't permit you to harmonize dynamically the way an unfretted string instrument does.

Even within a particular key, the pitch that sounds the best for a particular note will depend on which other notes within that key you're attempting to harmonize with. A keyboard can't do that.

Re:Why are D-sharp and E-flat considered to be two different... by wizofaus on Sunday August 28, 2022 @02:02PM (#32630470)
Btw, this is from the wikipedia article on Equal Temperament, and I'd say it aligns with my general understanding/ expectation:

"Unfretted string ensembles, which can adjust the tuning of all notes except for open strings, and vocal groups, who have no mechanical tuning limitations, sometimes use a tuning much closer to just intonation for acoustic reasons. Other instruments, such as some wind, keyboard, and fretted instruments, often only approximate equal temperament, where technical limitations prevent exact tunings.[4]"

Re:Why are D-sharp and E-flat considered to be two different... by wizofaus on Sunday August 28, 2022 @12:43PM (#32629767)
No and it's possible that as a pianist my ears are more attuned to prefer equal temperament than those of a string player. But I admit when singing a capella there are occasions particular chords just seem to sit better than when having to match a piano accompaniment, and to some extent that's likely to be the ability to use "purer" intervals.
Re:Why are D-sharp and E-flat considered to be two different... by jnwatson on Sunday August 28, 2022 @11:40AM (#32629243)
Exactly. The only fixed-pitch instruments in an orchestra are the piano and the percussion section.

It was routine even in my high school brass section to pitch down the major 3rds.

Re:Why are D-sharp and E-flat considered to be two different... by wizofaus on Sunday August 28, 2022 @11:53AM (#32629340)
Having briefly learned a few wind instruments (flute and horn primarily) I'm aware pitch adjustment is possible but the keys/valves are designed around equal temperament - for anything other than slower sustained passages (or potentially repeated notes) constantly trying to approximate just intervals doesn't seem sustainable. And again, absolutely not what I would want or except to hear as a composer.
Re:Why are D-sharp and E-flat considered to be two different... by palimpsests on Sunday August 28, 2022 @12:29PM (#32629646)
skilled instrumentalists are quite capable of consistently reproducing intervals in a given tuning system. particularly thirds in just intonation. it’s not an approximation. it’s one of the reasons we spend so much time learning ear training in conservatory.
Re:Why are D-sharp and E-flat considered to be two different... by wizofaus on Sunday August 28, 2022 @12:59PM (#32629919)
I argue all just about all intonation is some sort of approximation, unless you're playing an electronic instrument that doesn't allow pitch adjustments! And it does surprise me how little my ears seem to notice despite having zero tolerance for people singing even slightly off-key.
Re:Why are D-sharp and E-flat considered to be two different... by palimpsests on Sunday August 28, 2022 @01:24PM (#32630114)
relative to mathematical perfection, of course it’s all an approximation when a human instrumentalist is involved. that’s the nature of our physical reality.

the most important element here is how it sounds to our ears. not how closely it tracks to an equation.

Re:Why are D-sharp and E-flat considered to be two different... by joelfolksy on Sunday August 28, 2022 @05:00PM (#32632028)
I'm only an amateur, but I doubt there are string players that "learn" equal temperament. I have no idea how I would find 440 * (2^(1/12) ^ n) Hz, for any n not a multiple of 12, in the way that I can find 440 * (4/3) Hz, or 440 * (3/2) Hz, etc. When playing with equaled tempered instruments like piano, you just listen for clashes and adjust dynamically, which is only going to happen in slower, sustained passages.

And you're right, we don't play "based entirely on just intervals." What we do is constantly adjust our intonation depending on whether we need it to be "just" with respect to something else (like other notes in a chord), or whether we are free to use a more "melodic" intonation. See https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QaYOwIIvgHg for a good demonstration -- note that he talks in formal terms like "play x in the Pythagorean system," but I think you can largely see this as a rationalization of what players do naturally).

Finally, the presence of vibrato doesn't really obviate intonation concerns, sadly. There's a lot of theoretical debate about how the pitch of a vibrated note is perceived (is it the highest pitch in the range that determines whether the note sounds in tune? etc.), but in practice you can easily verify that adding vibrato to an out-of-tune scale will not make it sound any more in tune, nor will adding it to a shift mask a slightly-missed shift (if only!).

Re:Why are D-sharp and E-flat considered to be two different... by wizofaus on Sunday August 28, 2022 @05:13PM (#32632113)
I chose the word "smother" deliberately, though maybe "blur" would be better. There's quite a bit of debate as to how the pitch of a note with vibrato is perceived. It definitely isn't right in the middle which might be the naive hypothesis.