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Re:The carried interest loophole survives again by lotsofpulp on Tuesday August 23, 2022 @08:17AM (#32563716)
Regressive taxes are fine if they are offset by a universal cash benefit. The purpose of a tax can be to curb some type of behavior, such as carbon emissions or water usage or road usage.

If it happens to be regressive, then that can be solved by giving everyone $x. And then you recoup via marginal income/marginal sales taxes.

Re:The carried interest loophole survives again by colejohnson66 on Tuesday August 23, 2022 @08:36AM (#32563966)
> The purpose of a tax can be to curb some type of behavior, such as carbon emissions or water usage or road usage.

They're to collect money for the government so that it can do things (or just sit on the money if you're a king). King George didn't tax the colonies because he wanted them to stop doing things; he did it because he wanted the money. In more modern times, a government raises taxes to pay for new roads or whatnot.

Using taxes as punishment is just a nice benefit that the government can wield.

Re:The carried interest loophole survives again by lotsofpulp on Tuesday August 23, 2022 @08:40AM (#32564009)
That is why I wrote “can be”. For example, variable rate tolling. Free to drive on an empty road in the middle of the night, but very expensive during peak traffic times to reduce chances of gridlock and incentivize spreading out demand to non peak times, or disincentive using the road period.
Re:The carried interest loophole survives again by zmgsabst on Tuesday August 23, 2022 @08:26AM (#32563829)
You’re still disproportionately burdening the middle class versus wealthy, causing a bi-modal distribution.

A lot of these schemes to “help the poor” in fact “cement feudalism” by destroying the middle class to the benefit of elites.

Re:The carried interest loophole survives again by lotsofpulp on Tuesday August 23, 2022 @08:30AM (#32563885)
Why do the marginal rates have to be set to disproportionately burden the middle class versus the wealthy?

I would think an exponential function would easily prevent this.

Re:The carried interest loophole survives again by zmgsabst on Tuesday August 23, 2022 @08:34AM (#32563933)
In the context of sales tax, any politically possible tax is going to burden the middle class more as they spend more as a fraction of their income.

Income taxes don’t have that, as they’re a progressive tax.

The idea you’ll have an “exponential function” in the tax policy is pure lunacy that’s not politically tractable, though.

Re:The carried interest loophole survives again by lotsofpulp on Tuesday August 23, 2022 @08:37AM (#32563982)
A marginal sales tax is not a tax based on the fraction of your income/wealth that you spend, it is simply based on the nominal amount of spend.

Obviously this whole idea is politically impossible as it would result in huge wealth redistribution, but it is funny that with all the technological innovations, a simple exponential function for determining taxes is considered to not be feasible.

Re:The carried interest loophole survives again by zmgsabst on Tuesday August 23, 2022 @08:52AM (#32564160)
Yes — the nominal amount spent is a different fraction of their income for different income brackets, leading to a regressive tax.

Your final point is a non-sequitur:

The objection to an exponential function isn’t the technical complexity, but the behavior of exponential functions. You’re just dressing up “seize the wealthy’s money” in fancy math.

Though, you’re also understating the complexity of having such a variable tax and the second order impacts you’re likely to cause.

Edit — replying here as I hit my posting cap:

We care because our goal is a prosperous society for our citizens, for which we need a robust and active middle class.

We don’t exempt those goods from taxes (as we do with the essentials). My point has been that your vision for taxes creates a bi-modal distribution between rich and poor by laying a heavy tax burden on the middle class, until they wither — essentially creating feudalism.

A healthy society (with progressive taxes) creates opportunities for the poor to advance their well-being out of poverty by not over-encumbering the path to a middle class life. Regressive taxes are antithetical to that.

Re:The carried interest loophole survives again by lotsofpulp on Tuesday August 23, 2022 @09:08AM (#32564367)
> Yes — the nominal amount spent is a different fraction of their income for different income brackets, leading to a regressive tax.

I am not understanding this. Why would we care what the percentage of tax paid is as a proportion of income? Poorer people have already been helped by reducing sales tax rates for the amount of spend needed to ascertain a certain quality of life. If they choose to spend more, and a higher income person chooses to spend less, why would society care that the lower income person pays more as a percentage of their income?

Re:The carried interest loophole survives again by actionfromafar on Tuesday August 23, 2022 @08:22AM (#32563780)
Aren't "handouts" a hard sell in the US?
Re:The carried interest loophole survives again by throwaway0a5e on Tuesday August 23, 2022 @08:33AM (#32563923)
Even if you ignore the resistance to handouts the idea that the federal government in its current state or any reasonably probable future state could pull off administrating said handouts without it devolving into a bunch of special interest BS and partisan bickering and actually accomplish the goal of making a VAT a regressive pain in everyone's butt is just laughable.

Look at healthcare spending. Look at social safety nets. Look at defense. Odds are that any spending in an attempt to make VAT less regressive would wind up looking a lot like those and having most of the same problems because it would be subject to the same sets of perverse incentives from top to bottom.

Re:The carried interest loophole survives again by lotsofpulp on Tuesday August 23, 2022 @08:24AM (#32563802)
Yes, I do not expect any substantial movement for wealth redistribution on the federal (nationwide) level.
Re:The carried interest loophole survives again by Wyoming23 on Tuesday August 23, 2022 @11:23AM (#32566261)
Not really.

Every time a new handout gets created, there is a predictable round of complaining from the fiscal conservatives, but fiscal conservatives make up only about 10-15% of Republicans and 3-5% of Democrats so inevitably the handout eventually gets passed, perhaps with a name-change or some token constraint, but then once established becomes normalized and permanent.

Re:The carried interest loophole survives again by JKCalhoun on Tuesday August 23, 2022 @08:29AM (#32563868)
You're still taking significantly less from the wealthy. Where then is money for the universal cash benefit coming from?
Re:The carried interest loophole survives again by benj111 on Tuesday August 23, 2022 @08:47AM (#32564093)
I think the idea is, say the average person uses 100 gallons of petrol a year. You add a $1 tax to each gallon, thereby costing the average person $100 per year, but you give them $100 back. The average person is no better or worse off, but it's an incentive to use less fuel.

You could make the argument either way that this fall's more on the rich. They tand to have more bigger cars, bit then you could argue that the poor have older less efficient cars, but it isn't really aimed at wealth. I suppose the key is that any party can arrange their lifestyle to avoid being worse off.

Re:The carried interest loophole survives again by lotsofpulp on Tuesday August 23, 2022 @08:32AM (#32563912)
Why would significantly less money be taken from the wealthy?

You set the marginal rates, or the parameters of the function for determining the marginal taxes equal to however much is needed to cover the costs.

Re:The carried interest loophole survives again by ImPostingOnHN on Tuesday August 23, 2022 @09:00AM (#32564266)
that would make the refund, and thus the system as a whole, regressive

to avoid this, the refund would itself need to be progressive, giving back to some more than others, which sounds like a worse version of just progressively taxing in the first place