News for hackers. Stuff that matters.
Re:Racism and Meritocracy by thaumaturgy on Saturday November 19, 2011 @04:22PM (#3256279)
I am racist.

And sexist.

I subconsciously attribute certain qualities to men and women, and to various ethnicities. Underneath all of the various common jokes -- "Asians are good at math", etc. -- there is an undercurrent of discussion where other people are admitting their biases, too.

When I get on the phone with technical support and hear a thick East Asian accent, the first thing that happens is I grit my teeth. I feel frustrated that I am having to try to resolve a technical issue with someone that I have to actively concentrate on in order to understand clearly; I feel annoyed in expectation of their overstated politeness; I am immediately resigned to not getting the problem resolved at all, as they are probably going to ask me to troubleshoot a networking problem by rebooting a computer.

These are biases that have been built up over a period of many years of similar experiences, one little bias at a time. And, when the call actually resolves the issue quickly and without any frustration at all, I find myself thinking, "That went better than expected."

I recognize this about myself. So, when I notice these things happening, I consciously moderate my tone, and try to consciously manage my opinions and feelings and statements. But, that doesn't change the fact that the bias is there, affecting my subconscious.

Likewise, for women in tech. I know there are amazing women in technology, and in other male-dominated fields. I'm occasionally fortunate enough to work with some of them, covering a wide range of other demographics. Still, when it comes time to hire again (someday soon, I hope), applications from women will first be met with biases built up one-by-one from a lifetime of experiences: all the various women friends that need help "fixing their computers", or of a past applicant who we hired, presented with an easy starting project and clear instructions -- "no coding necessary, just do some nice-looking Photoshop mockups" -- and who called, the next day, saying that she had cried all night and talked to her mom because she didn't think she could do the work because we used iframes in an ajax-y way.

Or, when I hear about a black entrepreneur. The first thing that bubbles up from my subconscious is, "Wow, they're succeeding in spite of modern black culture." I have to beat that thought down and consciously regard them as an individual.

These are uncomfortable admissions to make. I would be loathe to admit them in more polite company. Terms like "racism" and "sexism" themselves carry strong biases -- that the only forms of "racism" are "white superiority" and the only forms of "sexism" are blatant misogyny and creepy sexual undertones.

But, racism and sexism and other -isms are a part of who we are, a part of our psychology that dates back to our tribal and "us versus them" cultural influences. I think that trying to pretend that they don't exist is only going to prolong their effects.

Knowing that they exist can help us make better decisions.

Re:Racism and Meritocracy by yummyfajitas on Saturday November 19, 2011 @04:38PM (#3256335)
Underneath all of the various common jokes -- "Asians are good at math", etc. -- there is an undercurrent of discussion where other people are admitting their biases, too.

That's not a bias, it's simple fact. Asians have SAT math scores 72 points higher than average, TIMSS scores 74 points higher than average, and are disproportionately represented in professions requiring significant mathematical background.

http://www.infoplease.com/ipa/A0883611.html

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trends_in_International_Mathema...

Further, the top 5 nations on the math component of TIMSS have been the 5 first world countries in Asia (Japan, Hong Kong, Singapore, South Korea and Taiwan) in all years since 1995 (in 1995, Taiwan was not included, and Belgium was #5).

Re:Racism and Meritocracy by temphn on Saturday November 19, 2011 @04:51PM (#3256370)
The interesting point here is that people believe that if a fact has racist, sexist, or homophobic implications it must not be true.

Reminiscent of an earlier era in which any statements that contradicted church doctrine must simply be false. Indeed, the very concept of a "heretical but true" statement was impossible to comprehend.

Re:Racism and Meritocracy by vannevar on Saturday November 19, 2011 @06:55PM (#3256739)
While we're talking about simple facts, how about the simple fact that 70% of the population has an unconscious preference for whites over blacks? (http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2009/06/090617142120.ht... .) The hard truth is that even if you think you're unbiased, you're probably not. And brain research increasingly indicates that we simply don't know our own minds nearly as well as we think we do (http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2008/04/080414145705.ht...).
Re:Racism and Meritocracy by kenjackson on Saturday November 19, 2011 @06:01PM (#3256579)
And worldwide Asians are underrepresented as Field's medalists. And Turning Award winners. And Nobel prizes in math intesive fields like Econ and Physics.
Re:Racism and Meritocracy by Rastafarian on Saturday November 19, 2011 @06:27PM (#3256656)
Give them a few more years.

There is a group with even higher SAT and IQ scores - the Jews. And they are way overrepresented in Field's, Turing, Nobel awards.

Re:Racism and Meritocracy by thaumaturgy on Saturday November 19, 2011 @04:48PM (#3256365)
Well, it can be both a bias and a fact.

I did not go so far as to say that biases have no basis in fact, because that's an argument I'm neither prepared to make, nor want to make.

I was making the point that biases exist.

Re:Racism and Meritocracy by moldbug on Saturday November 19, 2011 @05:17PM (#3256449)
Some have coined the term "hatefacts" for these biased facts.
Re:Racism and Meritocracy by leot on Saturday November 19, 2011 @09:36PM (#3257054)
So? What are you going to do with that information?

What's a better way of figuring out if someone is good at math: give them a math test? Or look up their ancestry?

Re:Racism and Meritocracy by yummyfajitas on Saturday November 19, 2011 @11:25PM (#3257276)
I didn't claim an immediate and obvious use for this info, I merely claimed that it was a true statement rather than a bias.
Re:Racism and Meritocracy by maxklein on Sunday November 20, 2011 @05:44AM (#3257828)
Is it a statement that will always be true, and that has always been true? If it may not be continuously true temporarily, can it still be described as a fact?
Re:Racism and Meritocracy by guard-of-terra on Sunday November 20, 2011 @03:44AM (#3257654)
"all the various women friends that need help "fixing their computers"," I don't see how is it relevant to hiring a developer, and I also don't see how you could possibly have no male relatives and friends asking for computer help (especially considering older demographics of those). Those are usually equally represented.
Re:Racism and Meritocracy by merkat on Saturday November 19, 2011 @05:04PM (#3256406)
"Courageously" admitting something doesn't make it OK, simply based on the speculative assertion that a lot of people do the same. We may be living in a biased society, but admitting this doesn't make it excusable.
Re:Racism and Meritocracy by danking00 on Saturday November 19, 2011 @05:31PM (#3256503)
Did you miss the very last line of his comment?

"Knowing that they exist can help us make better decisions."

He's making this admission with the expressed desire of changing, not trying to justify or excuse it.

Re:Racism and Meritocracy by merkat on Sunday November 20, 2011 @07:59PM (#3259521)
Don't you think it is contradictory to support both views that racism and sexism "help us make better decisions" AND that there is an "expressed desire of changing" that? Why would you want to change something if you think it helps you make better decisions?

So my conclusion is that the parent comment is only looking for excuses for being racist, namely that it allegedly helps and that people are generally racist. It doesn't and we don't have to be.

Re:Racism and Meritocracy by thaumaturgy on Tuesday November 22, 2011 @04:23AM (#3264792)
Sorry, I just found this a day after you left your comment. I'm a little stumped at how you read my comment that way, because that wasn't at all what I was thinking when I wrote it (and I tried to be clear in what I wrote).

I do not think that racism and sexism help us make better decisions; I think that acknowledging our own racist and sexist biases can help us make better decisions. i.e., if we become aware of the problem, then we can address it.

I do not condone or excuse racist or sexist behavior, either.

A lot of the original article was founded on the idea that we can have cognitive biases -- prejudices -- that we don't mean to, or even that we are aware of, and that those biases and prejudices can affect other people. I thought it was worth standing up and admitting that these biases are a part of my psychology, and by doing so, take the first steps towards creating a better environment for other people.

I was especially prompted to speak up because of the tendency for people in discussions like this to downplay their own vulnerability to such biases. The default response seems to be, "these are just the people that are interested in this industry, so I don't see a problem." I think it's better to say, "there might be a problem that we aren't fully aware of yet, so we should examine it more closely."

Hope this helps clear things up.

Re:Racism and Meritocracy by eaurouge on Saturday November 19, 2011 @09:11PM (#3257002)
We all have our biases. Some of us try to pretend we don't but the truth is we all do. For an individual to overcome his/her biases, that person first has to accept they exist in the first place.