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Re:Twilio incident: What Signal users need to know by tptacek on Monday August 15, 2022 @01:33PM (#32472696)
Signal doesn't ask for phone numbers simply to combat spam; the phone number isn't an elaborate captcha. Rather, as this article repeatedly points out, Signal doesn't keep your contact lists and other data available to its servers. It uses phone numbers because phones already have contact lists, stored clientside, keyed by those numbers.

To replace the numbers with usernames, Signal users would have to either give up contact lists altogether (at which point nobody would use the service), or allow Signal to keep a serverside database of contacts ready at all times for users who log in. This is what other messaging services do, and the result is that the servers have a plaintext log of who talks to who on their service, which is the most valuable information a secure messaging service can make available to a state-level adversary.

Re:Twilio incident: What Signal users need to know by rt4mn on Monday August 15, 2022 @01:41PM (#32472811)
> It uses phone numbers because phones already have contact lists, stored clientside, keyed by those numbers.

This makes sense for contact discovery, which is important for normal people who just want a chat app that works.

But there are a very important segment of signal users, people with an elevated threat model, who I would be willing to bet a good portion of them would gladly sacrifice contact lists if it meant not having to share their phone number.

Re:Twilio incident: What Signal users need to know by Aachen on Monday August 15, 2022 @01:43PM (#32472837)
> or allow Signal to keep a serverside database of contacts ready at all times for users who log in. This is what other messaging services do, and the result is that the servers have a plaintext log of who talks to who on their service, which is the most valuable information a secure messaging service can make available

Why couldn't they just keep using the current system, alongside usernames, for phone number contact discovery? Of course for those who opt into it; imo that's what it should be.

Re:Twilio incident: What Signal users need to know by daneel_w on Monday August 15, 2022 @01:45PM (#32472864)
Users having to add their contacts each time they set Signal up on a new phone, should the app keep its own client-side contact book, doesn't sound like hassle.

Could you please explain how Signal does not have a social network map, when 1) user accounts are equal to mobile phone numbers, and 2) Signal servers route messages between user accounts.

Re:Twilio incident: What Signal users need to know by niel on Monday August 15, 2022 @02:15PM (#32473283)
The Signal protocol has had "sealed sender" since 2018 - Signal server does not know who sent a message, because the sender's identity is E2E encrypted along with the message.

Even if Signal's server saves a message (they claim not to, once downloaded), Signal's server by design has no way of knowing who sent the message.

Re:Twilio incident: What Signal users need to know by daneel_w on Monday August 15, 2022 @02:29PM (#32473465)
Every inbound message is authenticated, and credentials are stored somewhere. Correct me if I am wrong, but I'm betting that it's with the same credential/channel as for logging-in a user (aka "sender").

Also, wasn't "sealed sender" broken (again) earlier this year by a group of researchers?

Re:Twilio incident: What Signal users need to know by niel on Monday August 15, 2022 @02:48PM (#32473662)
No, sealed sender messages are not authenticated. The sender's client uploads two things: 1) an encrypted message (with sender id encrypted), and 2) a zero-knowledge proof that the sender's client knows the recipient's delivery token.

There is no authentication by the sender, and the sender does not upload any credentials.

Re:Twilio incident: What Signal users need to know by daneel_w on Monday August 15, 2022 @03:03PM (#32473824)
I guess I have to rephrase myself: the API calls are authenticated, because the API endpoints will not consume anonymous requests. I'd be glad if you could point me to documentation proving that the messaging API uses completely different credentials than those for user login, and that the two are also disassociated.
Re:Twilio incident: What Signal users need to know by niel on Monday August 15, 2022 @04:12PM (#32474765)
This doesn't prove anything, but:

> Without authenticating, hand the encrypted envelope to the service along with the recipient’s delivery token.

Source: https://signal.org/blog/sealed-sender/#:~:text=Without%20aut...

The sender's client sends a certificate derived from the recipient's profile key.

This certificate is sent to the server as the header "Unidentified-Access-Key" - you can see how this header is derived from the Signal clients' source.

So yes, these API calls are authenticated, but not using the sender's credentials in any way.

Re:Twilio incident: What Signal users need to know by melgafin on Monday August 15, 2022 @03:25PM (#32474111)
Good luck finding documentation about the protocols and APIs used by signal. While every random cryptocurrency has a cryptography whitepaper, it seems that Signal does not.
Re:Twilio incident: What Signal users need to know by niel on Monday August 15, 2022 @05:08PM (#32475400)
Signal published detailed specifications of the protocol with reference implementations since at least Feb 2017 (group messaging protocol was added later on): https://signal.org/docs/

The server and clients are open source: https://github.com/signalapp

Re:Twilio incident: What Signal users need to know by tjoff on Monday August 15, 2022 @01:45PM (#32472874)
You forgot the part where joining signal "conveniently" discloses that to everyone - with no way to opt out(!).

Also, everyone not sharing their contacts with the signal app already have that UX. Minus the privacy benefits of course.

Re:Twilio incident: What Signal users need to know by bitexploder on Monday August 15, 2022 @02:10PM (#32473214)
Signal has always prioritized message security and integrity over anonymity. If you want anonymity, Signal is not, has not, and probably never will be the tool for you.
Re:Twilio incident: What Signal users need to know by tjoff on Monday August 15, 2022 @02:15PM (#32473292)
Huge difference between having a low profile and actively advertising out new registrations. Does not sit well with any conceivable notion of privacy. Which supposedly is one of their strongpoints.
Re:Twilio incident: What Signal users need to know by mercutio2 on Monday August 15, 2022 @02:20PM (#32473347)
Are you basing your argument on assumptions that:

  A) Most contacts have phone numbers
  B) Most contacts don't have email addresses?
I think you're assuming this (and as it happens, I agree, although the number of email-only contacts is still nonzero for a lot of people).

Are you also assuming that it just adds a lot of complexity to be willing to search by both phone numbers and emails?

That's the part of your argument I'm not grasping. Signal has to be willing to intersect known-account-identifiers with this-device's-local-contact-handles, what's the problem with preferring phone numbers but allowing emails?

Re:Twilio incident: What Signal users need to know by parineum on Monday August 15, 2022 @02:25PM (#32473400)
> ...and the result is that the servers have a plaintext log of who talks to who on their service

Is there a reason why a user's address book can't be encrypted as well?