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Re:Arrest of suspected developer of Tornado Cash by agotterer on Friday August 12, 2022 @07:32AM (#32436934)
By that logic why haven’t the developers of Metasploit also been arrested? It’s hard to argue that the behavior of the software isn’t/couldn’t be used for nefarious purposes and to commit crimes.

Anonymizing spending on it’s own is not a crime. Clearly the line is crossed if the developer is promoting the use of the software for illegal purposes. I’m only vaguely familiar with Tornado cash, was that the case? If not, how do we as a society/community draw the line on determining a developers intentions?

Re:Arrest of suspected developer of Tornado Cash by phphphphp on Friday August 12, 2022 @08:13AM (#32437312)
Software doesn’t come to be through immaculate conception: the authors created it, knowing it could be used in this way.

If a company releases software that is used nefariously, there are very common legal actions to hold them accountable. For example, Facebook has extensive legal obligations to meet to do with behaviour on their platform.

I am not arguing that tornado cash should be illegal (or that encryption should be illegal) rather I am arguing that people are responsible for the software they have created.

If I commit a crime, my intent is absolutely a part of the equation when determining legal action. Why should it be any different with software?

If you wish to argue that the right to privacy is so great that it exceeds any risk of criminal activity, and thus the developers of tornado cash were doing something for the greater good, so be it (that’s probably the position I would take) but it doesn’t absolve them of responsibility.

Taken to the extreme, if I build a piece of software that can save the lives of murder victims by killing the murderer: I am responsible for the killing of (intended) murderers. We might decide that the activity is justified, that the software is operating for the greater good and is therefore permissible, but that doesn’t change my responsibility.

Re:Arrest of suspected developer of Tornado Cash by ziddoap on Friday August 12, 2022 @08:56AM (#32437804)
>I am arguing that people are responsible for the software they have created.

So, is your answer to the asked question yes, the developers of Metasploit should be arrested and jailed?

How about the developers of Bitlocker? It's used to encrypt illegal content, impeding police discovery efforts. Every person who developed a file-sharing website should probably also be arrested. Lots of illegal/pirated/etc. content out there.

The point being that almost every software on the planet can potentially used for malicious and illegal activities. Seems like if we indefinitely held developers responsible for what other people do with their software, the smart person would never develop any software.

Re:Arrest of suspected developer of Tornado Cash by phphphphp on Friday August 12, 2022 @09:32AM (#32438379)
Law isn’t a binary based on responsibility, it’s reductive to suggest that by arguing for responsibility we are also arguing for prison for software developers. I can be responsible for your death and spend no time in prison.

Every other industry deals with this challenge — why should software be any different?

Re:Arrest of suspected developer of Tornado Cash by ziddoap on Friday August 12, 2022 @09:52AM (#32438650)
You can take the word "jailed" out of my comment, replace it with "responsible for", and I still think my point stands...

You said:

>If a company releases software that is used nefariously, there are very common legal actions to hold them accountable

If you believe that, it follows that you believe that every developer of encryption algorithms should be "held accountable" (be it jail, or "responsible without prison", etc.) because other people use encryption to hide illegal activity. Developers of internet protocols should be accountable for the actions other people take on the internet, because lots of illegal things happen on the internet.

Metasploit, Kali, 7-zip, FileZilla, Word/Excel, Putty, OpenVPN... Should I go on? All of these are used for nefarious things all the time. Are you really suggesting that the developers of these should be responsible for the nefarious things that their users do? If not jail, what responsibility are you suggesting?

>Every other industry deals with this challenge — why should software be any different?

Most other industries have protections against this type of liability, not responsibilities. See knives, guns, planes, cars, etc. Unless their is gross negligence, which isn't just "it was used nefariously", the maker of X is generally not responsible for what some user of X does with X.

Edit for clarification:

You can argue about purpose-built nefarious software, sure. If I develop ransomware, and advertise it as ransomware, and there's no legitimate use other than ransoming... I should probably be held responsible for the ransomware attacks that occur using that tool (at least, I accept that argument). The problem with applying this to all software is that most everything that is used nefariously was originally designed for and used for legitimate uses. When that's the case, the person who committed the crime with the legitimate tool should be held responsible, not the maker of the legitimate tool.

Re:Arrest of suspected developer of Tornado Cash by phphphphp on Saturday August 13, 2022 @09:30AM (#32449685)
Most industry protections against liabilities are predicated on compliance with expectations about responsibility: the protection against liability is earned. For example, firearm manufacturers are protected from being held liable for actions taken with their firearms as long as they comply with their legal responsibilities, like not selling firearms to children. If a firearms manufacturer sold firearms to children, they would absolutely be held liable for the outcomes.

If you knowingly build software that can be used for money laundering and make no effort to prevent money laundering then, if software was treated like other industries, you’d absolutely expect to be held liable.

Re:Arrest of suspected developer of Tornado Cash by ziddoap on Monday August 15, 2022 @09:08AM (#32469183)
>If you knowingly build software that can be used for money laundering

You've retreated back to money laundering, but that is not what you originally were talking about.

You were pretty clear that you were talking about any software which is used nefariously. Which I pointed out that pretty much any software can be used nefariously (e.g. ssh, browsers, hosting software, etc.), but you keep avoiding that.

Re:Arrest of suspected developer of Tornado Cash by phphphphp on Monday August 15, 2022 @01:31PM (#32472661)
I’m not avoiding it. There’s nuance. A piece of software that is specifically designed to enable a behaviour that is core to money laundering is different from a piece of software that can be used to engage in money laundering.

A web browser can be used to access a banking website through which you might engage in money laundering, sure, but that’s very different to a piece of software that can be used to hide the origin of funds.

The difference is like a kitchen utensil manufacturer vs. a gun manufacturer. A kitchen knife can be used to kill, a gun can be used to kill, but we hold gun manufacturers and kitchen utensil manufacturers to different standards because intent is an important aspect.

Your argument is predicated on the idea that intent doesn’t matter, but intent does matter, intent is a significant component of criminal law.

Re:Arrest of suspected developer of Tornado Cash by ziddoap on Monday August 15, 2022 @04:19PM (#32474848)
These are your words:

>If a company releases software that is used nefariously, there are very common legal actions to hold them accountable

There is no mention of intent. Just that if a software is used nefariously, the creators of that software should be legally accountable.

You later talk about your intent, when you commit a crime, but that's very different. I agree that if someone commits a crime with X software, their intent should be considered. What I don't agree with is holding Tatu Ylönen accountable for someone else's nefarious use of ssh.

Re:Arrest of suspected developer of Tornado Cash by Sebb767 on Friday August 12, 2022 @08:26AM (#32437466)
> Anonymizing spending on it’s own is not a crime.

Money laundering laws very much disagree with this.

Re:Arrest of suspected developer of Tornado Cash by agotterer on Friday August 12, 2022 @09:13AM (#32438061)
I’m not familiar with the money laundering laws. But do they state that you can’t buy something anonymously and without an audit trail? Because spending legally obtained cash seems anonymous to me. Is anonymizing your digital spend with legally obtained capital that different?
Re:Arrest of suspected developer of Tornado Cash by Sebb767 on Friday August 12, 2022 @10:40AM (#32439372)
I can't speak for the US, but in Germany, transactions between countries over 10k€ must be reported to the Bundesbank. There are similar limits for inner-country transactions with businesses, especially financial ones. I assume the USA has similar rules. So small cash transaction are fine, but as soon as larger sums are involved it's going to be very problematic.

Since crypto currencies, nearly by definition, don't care about country borders and the mixers don't trace the amount put in by each user, they almost certainly allow you to circumvent money laundering registration requirements. It's even worse if they frame the mixer as financial institution, in which case it directly violates its reporting requirements.

Re:Arrest of suspected developer of Tornado Cash by aaaaaaaaata on Friday August 12, 2022 @11:06AM (#32439720)
> It's even worse if they frame the mixer as financial institution

Where do they?

Re:Arrest of suspected developer of Tornado Cash by agotterer on Friday August 12, 2022 @10:53AM (#32439530)
These are fair points and I believe there are similar laws in the US.
Re:Arrest of suspected developer of Tornado Cash by Ferrotin on Friday August 12, 2022 @11:23AM (#32439940)
Money laundering laws in the U.S. require some other crime to be involved.