News for hackers. Stuff that matters.
Re:Arrest of suspected developer of Tornado Cash by ziddoap on Friday August 12, 2022 @08:56AM (#32437804)
>I am arguing that people are responsible for the software they have created.

So, is your answer to the asked question yes, the developers of Metasploit should be arrested and jailed?

How about the developers of Bitlocker? It's used to encrypt illegal content, impeding police discovery efforts. Every person who developed a file-sharing website should probably also be arrested. Lots of illegal/pirated/etc. content out there.

The point being that almost every software on the planet can potentially used for malicious and illegal activities. Seems like if we indefinitely held developers responsible for what other people do with their software, the smart person would never develop any software.

Re:Arrest of suspected developer of Tornado Cash by phphphphp on Friday August 12, 2022 @09:32AM (#32438379)
Law isn’t a binary based on responsibility, it’s reductive to suggest that by arguing for responsibility we are also arguing for prison for software developers. I can be responsible for your death and spend no time in prison.

Every other industry deals with this challenge — why should software be any different?

Re:Arrest of suspected developer of Tornado Cash by ziddoap on Friday August 12, 2022 @09:52AM (#32438650)
You can take the word "jailed" out of my comment, replace it with "responsible for", and I still think my point stands...

You said:

>If a company releases software that is used nefariously, there are very common legal actions to hold them accountable

If you believe that, it follows that you believe that every developer of encryption algorithms should be "held accountable" (be it jail, or "responsible without prison", etc.) because other people use encryption to hide illegal activity. Developers of internet protocols should be accountable for the actions other people take on the internet, because lots of illegal things happen on the internet.

Metasploit, Kali, 7-zip, FileZilla, Word/Excel, Putty, OpenVPN... Should I go on? All of these are used for nefarious things all the time. Are you really suggesting that the developers of these should be responsible for the nefarious things that their users do? If not jail, what responsibility are you suggesting?

>Every other industry deals with this challenge — why should software be any different?

Most other industries have protections against this type of liability, not responsibilities. See knives, guns, planes, cars, etc. Unless their is gross negligence, which isn't just "it was used nefariously", the maker of X is generally not responsible for what some user of X does with X.

Edit for clarification:

You can argue about purpose-built nefarious software, sure. If I develop ransomware, and advertise it as ransomware, and there's no legitimate use other than ransoming... I should probably be held responsible for the ransomware attacks that occur using that tool (at least, I accept that argument). The problem with applying this to all software is that most everything that is used nefariously was originally designed for and used for legitimate uses. When that's the case, the person who committed the crime with the legitimate tool should be held responsible, not the maker of the legitimate tool.

Re:Arrest of suspected developer of Tornado Cash by phphphphp on Saturday August 13, 2022 @09:30AM (#32449685)
Most industry protections against liabilities are predicated on compliance with expectations about responsibility: the protection against liability is earned. For example, firearm manufacturers are protected from being held liable for actions taken with their firearms as long as they comply with their legal responsibilities, like not selling firearms to children. If a firearms manufacturer sold firearms to children, they would absolutely be held liable for the outcomes.

If you knowingly build software that can be used for money laundering and make no effort to prevent money laundering then, if software was treated like other industries, you’d absolutely expect to be held liable.

Re:Arrest of suspected developer of Tornado Cash by ziddoap on Monday August 15, 2022 @09:08AM (#32469183)
>If you knowingly build software that can be used for money laundering

You've retreated back to money laundering, but that is not what you originally were talking about.

You were pretty clear that you were talking about any software which is used nefariously. Which I pointed out that pretty much any software can be used nefariously (e.g. ssh, browsers, hosting software, etc.), but you keep avoiding that.

Re:Arrest of suspected developer of Tornado Cash by phphphphp on Monday August 15, 2022 @01:31PM (#32472661)
I’m not avoiding it. There’s nuance. A piece of software that is specifically designed to enable a behaviour that is core to money laundering is different from a piece of software that can be used to engage in money laundering.

A web browser can be used to access a banking website through which you might engage in money laundering, sure, but that’s very different to a piece of software that can be used to hide the origin of funds.

The difference is like a kitchen utensil manufacturer vs. a gun manufacturer. A kitchen knife can be used to kill, a gun can be used to kill, but we hold gun manufacturers and kitchen utensil manufacturers to different standards because intent is an important aspect.

Your argument is predicated on the idea that intent doesn’t matter, but intent does matter, intent is a significant component of criminal law.

Re:Arrest of suspected developer of Tornado Cash by ziddoap on Monday August 15, 2022 @04:19PM (#32474848)
These are your words:

>If a company releases software that is used nefariously, there are very common legal actions to hold them accountable

There is no mention of intent. Just that if a software is used nefariously, the creators of that software should be legally accountable.

You later talk about your intent, when you commit a crime, but that's very different. I agree that if someone commits a crime with X software, their intent should be considered. What I don't agree with is holding Tatu Ylönen accountable for someone else's nefarious use of ssh.