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Re:Man arrested for promoting jury nullification wins federa... by scarecrowbob on Tuesday August 09, 2022 @01:22AM (#32394435)
I like to think that saying lynching black folks is "in principle clearly wrong" is one example where I am okay with thinking that I am certain enough to override a "community's beliefs" about what is right or wrong.

I don't think that this is a magical power.

Re:Man arrested for promoting jury nullification wins federa... by pdonis on Tuesday August 09, 2022 @01:33AM (#32394494)
The problem is that the people who thought lynching was fine had the same sense of certainty that you have. Which all by itself is enough to refute the claim that such a sense of certainty is sufficient.
Re:Man arrested for promoting jury nullification wins federa... by washbrain on Tuesday August 09, 2022 @02:04AM (#32394692)
Yes, they did. But we've improved as a species. We may not recognize what our descendents will consider barbaric in our behavior, but we can be the ratchet that prevents us from repeating the barbarism of our forbears.
Re:Man arrested for promoting jury nullification wins federa... by pdonis on Tuesday August 09, 2022 @03:24PM (#32402821)
> we've improved as a species

This is arguing in a circle. It's only an "improvement" for someone who already agrees with your ethical and moral claim.

Re:Man arrested for promoting jury nullification wins federa... by washbrain on Tuesday August 09, 2022 @05:11PM (#32404384)
Disagree, cultural norms are not just formless things that can come and go entirely without context. We can never have a discussion about the morality of slavery without the historical context.
Re:Man arrested for promoting jury nullification wins federa... by pdonis on Tuesday August 09, 2022 @06:14PM (#32405160)
You aren't disagreeing with me, you're agreeing with me. You're saying that ethical and moral claims are context dependent, not absolute. Such claims include claims that, for example, abolishing slavery or lynching is an "improvement". Which is exactly my point.
Re:Man arrested for promoting jury nullification wins federa... by toolz on Tuesday August 09, 2022 @09:03AM (#32397209)
I don't think it's safe to assume something obviously bad today won't be good by many/most measures tomorrow. In fact I'm quite certain that the advancement of society doesn't rely exclusively on constraints, but also on expanding freedoms and loosing poorly conceived constraints.
Re:Man arrested for promoting jury nullification wins federa... by scarecrowbob on Tuesday August 09, 2022 @11:37AM (#32399409)
To me, any syllogism which tells me I am not qualified to say that lynching is not immoral is probably broken.

Rational argumentation is fine but it requires that we start with some reasonable premises.

Like any math problem, if you get strange answers it indicates that you're doing the problem wrong. If you divide the circumference of a circle by its diameter and you get something like 31.4 you might wanna check your math.

In this case, if you've "refuted" the idea that racially-based lynchings are universally morally impermissible, you might really wanna look at your math.

Re:Man arrested for promoting jury nullification wins federa... by pdonis on Tuesday August 09, 2022 @03:22PM (#32402796)
> Rational argumentation is fine but it requires that we start with some reasonable premises.

Yes, but you aren't doing that. You aren't deriving the conclusion that lynching is wrong from some reasonable premises. You're just asserting it. Another poster downthread did offer a reasonable premise, the golden rule, from which the conclusion that lynching is wrong can be derived. But that doesn't completely solve the problem either; see further comments below.

> if you've "refuted" the idea that racially-based lynchings are universally morally impermissible

This claim is already refuted by human history.

> you might really wanna look at your math

You might really wanna consider that ethics and morality are not math. You can't establish ethical and moral claims simply by deduction. You have to get people to agree to them--or you have to impose them on people by force (and then you have to deal with the ethical and moral problem of justifying such use of force). Even if you have premises that you think are reasonable that support your ethical and moral claims, you still have to get other people to agree to the premises. That's why ethics and morality are hard.

Re:Man arrested for promoting jury nullification wins federa... by scarecrowbob on Tuesday August 09, 2022 @02:50PM (#32402240)
And, for what it's worth, this principle that unexpected results indicate an error is quite useful.

I can't edit out the double negative in my first sentence which makes it incoherent (thanks to HN's time out system) but I can expect that most readers would see that and understand it is a grammatical error, and I'd expect that they'd have a some certainty about their reading of that sentence.

Re:Man arrested for promoting jury nullification wins federa... by weaksauce on Tuesday August 09, 2022 @02:04AM (#32394693)
I think the golden rule is usually sufficient. almost nobody wants to be lynched. likewise stolen from or harmed. the world is a better place with people abiding by that
Re:Man arrested for promoting jury nullification wins federa... by pdonis on Tuesday August 09, 2022 @03:17PM (#32402705)
This is fine, but it's not basing claims about what is good or bad on just your personal opinion or feeling. It's basing it on a general principle that is supposed to apply equally to everybody. That is indeed the only way of escaping the merry go round of shifting personal opinions and feelings. But it is also not perfect: not all ethical and moral issues can be resolved this way, because now you have the problem of which general principles should be used. Not everybody agrees with the golden rule, just as not everybody agrees that lynching is bad.
Re:Man arrested for promoting jury nullification wins federa... by pdonis on Tuesday August 09, 2022 @05:03PM (#32404259)
> almost nobody wants to be lynched

To illustrate why even reasoning from general principles has issues, consider: are you also against punishing people who commit crimes, on the grounds that almost nobody wants to be punished?

Re:Man arrested for promoting jury nullification wins federa... by weaksauce on Saturday August 13, 2022 @06:36PM (#32454473)
Sure it is not infallible but that is why I hedged the statement a little bit by saying "usually sufficient".