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Re:Please Use ZFS with ECC Memory (2014) by colechristensen on Saturday August 06, 2022 @03:38PM (#32370918)
Eh, the chance that data I care about will get corrupted in a way that matters is very small. ECC also does not eliminate errors, just reduces them by some constant proportion. Something quite rare becoming say, 10 times less likely doesn't really effect my decisions much. If you're using ECC you can make the exact same argument that you need another bit of parity with the same justifications of making something rare, rarer. Of the things than can go wrong with my data, small corruptions from memory bit flips are far down on the risks to worry about.

If you're Google (you're not Google) then the scale of errors becomes a choice of optimization.

Re:Please Use ZFS with ECC Memory (2014) by adrian_b on Saturday August 06, 2022 @04:08PM (#32371140)
ECC does not reduce errors only 10 times, but by several orders of magnitude.

The frequency of DRAM errors is proportional with the amount of memory installed in a computer. For smaller quantities of memory, e.g. 16 GB or 32 GB, the frequency might be of one error every few months. With ECC, the mean time between errors is likely to become longer than the lifetime of the computer.

Intel, who has initiated this absurdity of convincing the naive customers that it is OK to buy computers that may make mistakes from time to time, has succeeded to get away with it only due to the huge amount of software bugs, which have made the computer users believe that whenever a computer crashes, or some corrupted data is discovered, it is more likely that the cause has been a software bug and not a hardware defect.

The integrated circuits made with modern CMOS processes, with very small devices, have a non-negligible aging rate.

Because of that, memory modules that have been used for many years start at some point to have much more frequent errors than when new.

When you have ECC, such memory modules are immediately detected and they can be replaced before causing some irremediable data corruption. This helped me a lot a few times.

Re:Please Use ZFS with ECC Memory (2014) by RL_Quine on Saturday August 06, 2022 @03:53PM (#32371018)
I've seen many ECC log lines on machines before, my wifi routers have ECC memory and they have seen at least one fault each. It isn't a one in a million sort of risk, it's just that most systems don't run with ECC, and maybe that bit flip just causes a crash or instability that's chalked up to software bugs. Especially as memory densities continue to skyrocket I would expect to see errors becoming extremely common place.

It's some sort of variation of the Toupee Fallacy, you aren't aware of the frequency of bit errors because you have absolutely no way of knowing when they happen, and what "random" errors were caused by them.

Re:Please Use ZFS with ECC Memory (2014) by colechristensen on Saturday August 06, 2022 @06:33PM (#32372218)
It’s not that errors don’t happen it’s that they are rare and the surface area of them affecting something important in an important way are incredibly rare.

I don’t care about triggering an occasional bug or a bit flip in a video stream, these things are inconsequential. If a bit gets flipped in a photo it’ll be a very slightly different photo. A piece of text will be slightly different… if either had the luck to be in memory ready to write when hit, in dozens of gigabytes of memory.

The most likely consequence of a bit flip is nothing at all happening because it hit unallocated memory. The next most likely consequence is nothing as it hit a piece of program memory that has no effect on operation and gets overwritten in moments.

ECC zealots are really excited about preventing something that just doesn’t happen all that often: actual data corruption with permanent significant effects.

Re:Please Use ZFS with ECC Memory (2014) by RL_Quine on Saturday August 06, 2022 @07:44PM (#32372608)
My point was that you don't know when corruption has had an effect, because you're eschewing a method of detecting it.
Re:Please Use ZFS with ECC Memory (2014) by matheusmoreira on Sunday August 07, 2022 @08:00AM (#32375812)
> my wifi routers have ECC memory

This is really weird. How come even routers have ECC memory while our actual computers don't?

Why can't all memory just be ECC memory? I don't even see the point of non-ECC memory. Everything has error correction built-in: hard drives, SSDs, even optical media. Yet RAM doesn't?

Re:Please Use ZFS with ECC Memory (2014) by adrian_b on Sunday August 07, 2022 @08:46AM (#32376070)
Using memory without ECC on the so-called "consumer" devices, in opposition with the "professional" devices, a.k.a. servers and workstations, has been caused by Intel, from 1994, when they have introduced the second generation of Pentium CPUs, to 1995, when they have introduced Pentium Pro.

(The 1st generation of Pentium, the 60/66 MHz models, had been introduced in 1993, while the 2nd generation, the 90/100 MHz models, introduced in 1994, used a different socket and different motherboards.)

Unlike with the previous Intel CPUs, Intel had the idea to introduce a market segmentation between Pentium and Pentium Pro (for the successors of Pentium Pro, Intel created the Xeon brand, a couple of years later).

Therefore, Intel has retained the ability to detect and or correct memory errors only in the Pentium Pro chipsets (at that time the memory controllers were in the so called northbridge, a part of the chipset, and not in the CPU), while removing this feature from the Triton chipset intended for Pentium.

While Intel has initiated this market segmentation policy, between "amateurs" and "professionals" (unlike IBM, which since the first IBM PC had always included memory error detection via parity), both the memory module vendors and the makers of other CPUs have been also happy to follow this policy, because it allows them to extract much more money from the knowledgeable users than the cost of adding ECC, while also having larger profit margins when selling to naive users, because the elimination of ECC/parity has never caused any price reduction.

When this feature was removed, all the new motherboards and modules without parity/ECC had the same prices as the previous models with error detection (for many years, the memory errors were detected via parity, but then the memory controllers were improved, so that when using the same number of extra bits, i.e. the same memory modules and motherboards as for parity, single errors could be corrected, not only detected).

Re:Please Use ZFS with ECC Memory (2014) by RL_Quine on Sunday August 07, 2022 @11:01AM (#32377013)
I specifically bought hardware (APU2) for my wifi routers that has ECC, it's just not something that's commonly on hardware you could buy off the shelf. Like the other comment said, it's a stupid product differentiation thing that Intel did. This hardware for the point, uses a very old AMD Geode processor.
Re:Please Use ZFS with ECC Memory (2014) by yeauldfellows on Monday August 08, 2022 @01:12AM (#32382544)
I'm also looking at building a router with ecc ram. Do you have any hardware recommendations?
Re:Please Use ZFS with ECC Memory (2014) by RL_Quine on Monday August 08, 2022 @10:49AM (#32386080)
The APU2 is cheap, has lots of hardware support, but is getting a little long in the tooth. If you can deal with maxing out at gigabit speeds, it’s an amazing choice and can run just about any software because it’s just a standard x86 board.
Re:Please Use ZFS with ECC Memory (2014) by 10987654321 on Saturday August 06, 2022 @03:55PM (#32371033)
As someone who doesn't use ECC memory for my NAS (I'm not google) I have experienced many bitflips / corruptions for some sets of photos, especially when using a NAS with what turned out to be bad ram sticks (which was recognized after switching to using ZFS and raid 10, I don't know if this saved any of my data but the setup at least made me recognize that I had a problem).