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Re:Marc Andreessen says he’s for new housing, but records te... by dclowd9901 on Friday August 05, 2022 @12:30AM (#32351676)
Not a delight if you’re raising a family, in my experience. I loved living in densely populated areas when I was single. You end up having to subject your kids to mountains of homeless folks’ garbage or explaining the irregular behavior of the local crack head to your curious 5 year old.

Then again maybe that was just my neighborhood and no other densely populated area has ever dealt with such things.

Re:Marc Andreessen says he’s for new housing, but records te... by kelnos on Friday August 05, 2022 @06:48AM (#32354248)
If you have homeless people on your "dense" streets, it just means they aren't actually dense, or at least not dense enough.
Re:Marc Andreessen says he’s for new housing, but records te... by astrange on Friday August 05, 2022 @12:46AM (#32351791)
You had homeless people because you didn't build enough housing; it probably wasn't densely populated enough then.

(Homelessness is caused by most of the old cheap forms of housing like SROs/boarding houses being made illegal, causing locals to fall out of the system when they can't afford the nicer types - this is why you see it in cities and not in, say, West Virginia.)

Re:Marc Andreessen says he’s for new housing, but records te... by fosk on Friday August 05, 2022 @01:17AM (#32352029)
This is a great lie, since homelessness is - often and especially in San Francisco - not the result of lack of a home, rather the result of mental illness and drug addiction. This is also reinforced by the great amount of non-native homeless people that travel cross-state to cities like San Francisco.

Give your typical SF homeless a home, and they will rip the sink out the next day to raise enough money for more drugs.

It is not always lack of housing. Sometimes it is, very often it is not.

Re:Marc Andreessen says he’s for new housing, but records te... by astrange on Friday August 05, 2022 @01:23AM (#32352067)
No, it's what I said. The reason I said "not West Virginia" is because I knew you'd reply this way ;)

Homelessness in the US does not correlate with drug use, or else the homeless would be in Appalachia with meth and opioid users. It's in SF because housing is expensive there. And they're locals[1]. Now, they might be getting into drugs, but that's because there's nothing better to do when you're homeless and the police keep taking your stuff.

NYC does better because they build more shelters, but more importantly because New Jersey is next to them and is good at building affordable housing to make up for New York's NIMBYism.

[1] Santa Cruz also has a big homeless problem, and they aren't locals - but they're not druggies either, they're literally university students. The city just hates that it has a UC and refuses to build student housing for it.

Re:Marc Andreessen says he’s for new housing, but records te... by jjav on Friday August 05, 2022 @02:25AM (#32352463)
> Santa Cruz also has a big homeless problem, and they aren't locals - but they're not druggies either, they're literally university students.

That's quite a generalization and simplication of Santa Cruz situation.

A non-trivial percentage of UCSC students are homeless, yes.

That doesn't mean the homeless are literally all students, far from it. Most of them are well past university age and have no association with UCSC.

> The city just hates that it has a UC and refuses to build student housing for it.

Again it's complex. Santa Cruz is a very small slice of land between the ocean and unbuildable steep mountains (a lot of it protected forest land, state parks and so on). It can't expand to the north nor to the south.

The only direction to build is east (towards Watsonville) but transportation there and back is a huge problem so building to the east without addressing transportation won't solve anything.

UCSC itself isn't helping, since they keep driving aggressive student population growths without any regard to where any of them are going to be able to live.

Re:Marc Andreessen says he’s for new housing, but records te... by dclowd9901 on Monday August 08, 2022 @02:45AM (#32382951)
I think people need to sit down a bit. Why do _all_ places need to have affordable housing? It’s not as simple a question as you might think.

I am actually asking: why shouldn’t the San Francisco’s of the world spend $12 on a banana to ensure that their grocery baggers make $60k a year? This is how we actually fight the problem rather than having arbitrary amounts of low income housing courtesy of Title IX.

If you want to live in an expensive place, be prepared to spend some goddamn money. Or let’s hurry up and get to a post scarcity world. I don’t honestly care how it happens. Just pick and stick.

Re:Marc Andreessen says he’s for new housing, but records te... by epistasis on Friday August 05, 2022 @01:26AM (#32352095)
The great lie is that there's greater mental illness or addiction in San Francisco than other places. There's not.

What SF does have is very expensive housing, which directly causes homelessness. And homelessness also leads to addiction and mental illness, due to the extreme situation of not having a home.

And if the first-principles logical argument doesn't convince, go look at the data. Every $100 increase in average rent is associated with an increase in homelessness.

Re:Marc Andreessen says he’s for new housing, but records te... by olivermarks on Friday August 05, 2022 @02:09AM (#32352370)
'What SF does have is very expensive housing, which directly causes homelessness'.

This is completely illogical. The upper east side side and Beverley Hills have very expensive housing which hasn't 'directly caused homelessness'. SF is a tiny densely populated 49 sq mile peninsula with people like politician Nancy Pelosi owning vast hill top homes they rarely visit and an ultra permissive approach to drug use in some districts which has resulted in a catastrophic influx of addicts who have often also developed serious mental illnesses.

You can be sure there are no tent/RV encampments outside the Pelosi's or other wealthy estates yet those same people are selling completely unrealistic YIYBY utopianism, which is cruel and wildly impractical.

Re:Marc Andreessen says he’s for new housing, but records te... by epistasis on Friday August 05, 2022 @02:18AM (#32352429)
You don't think that high housing prices cause homelessness?

People don't become homeless because they can't afford the most expensive homes, they become homeless because the least expensive homes are still priced too high. This is not a hard concept to understand.

When I say "SF has expensive housing" I'm not talking about mansions, I'm talking about the crappiest, worst possible studio or bedroom under a staircase being rented for exorbitant amounts of money.

Re:Marc Andreessen says he’s for new housing, but records te... by olivermarks on Friday August 05, 2022 @10:42AM (#32356820)
'You don't think that high housing prices cause homelessness?'

It's a factor but not a fundamental as I previously said. SF has always had a large transient population - great climate, dumpster diving, permissive culture - which has now exploded due to the Fentanyl & meth disaster. There are lots of generational blue collar renter families really struggling to survive in the bay area and an acute shortage of housing primarily due to tech and over capacity of residents until recently.

What we now have is a mass exodus of tax paying residents and a huge influx of non contributing drug and smi casualties which is really tarting to hurt the tourism that pays the blue collar families rent via their jobs.

Re:Marc Andreessen says he’s for new housing, but records te... by astrange on Friday August 05, 2022 @03:00AM (#32352676)
I don't know any YIMBYs who live in Pac Heights. They'd love to put apartments there of course, but transit-oriented development means we have to start where the BART stations are. Housing is something, but it's easier to get back into society if you can commute to your job.
Re:Marc Andreessen says he’s for new housing, but records te... by olivermarks on Friday August 05, 2022 @11:50AM (#32357872)
I know plenty of YIYBY advocates who live in wealthy parts of SF that have clean streets, no homeless and own large properties. a good example would be 'democratic socialist' district 5 supervisor Dean Preston https://twitter.com/DeanPreston
Re:Marc Andreessen says he’s for new housing, but records te... by astrange on Friday August 05, 2022 @03:23PM (#32360746)
Dean Preston is the head NIMBY of the city next to Aaron Peskin. Dean spends approximately all his time denying housing project applications.

He doesn’t even only block them in his backyard; they’ve ignored member deference to block one in Matt Haney’s district before.

Re:Marc Andreessen says he’s for new housing, but records te... by olivermarks on Friday August 05, 2022 @03:40PM (#32360965)
Preston talks all about progressive housing on Twitter all the time, so does heroin Haney. Neither of them can get it together to practice what they preach so it's all useless YIYBY performative posturing anyway. In the past SF has wound up building disasters like Geneva Towers based on somewhat similar utopian ideals

https://youtu.be/7DZI5kqUJ_g

Re:Marc Andreessen says he’s for new housing, but records te... by astrange on Friday August 05, 2022 @03:58PM (#32361219)
No, he's your comrade, he’s very effective at stopping things.

https://nimby.report/preston

The language he uses makes him a left-NIMBY, but that’s just what they look like in cities. Found in NYC too. In suburbs the same people switch to talking about property values and 50s rural neighborhood character.

Re:Marc Andreessen says he’s for new housing, but records te... by olivermarks on Friday August 05, 2022 @04:25PM (#32361568)
I absolutely think affordable housing should be getting zoned and built, but the execution is so often a disaster.

https://youtu.be/KYOtsuTw65Q

Re:Marc Andreessen says he’s for new housing, but records te... by epistasis on Friday August 05, 2022 @09:37PM (#32363978)
If you were to remove the YouTube link from your comment, it could have come directly from Dean Preston.
Re:Marc Andreessen says he’s for new housing, but records te... by olivermarks on Saturday August 06, 2022 @12:55AM (#32364949)
how so?
Re:Marc Andreessen says he’s for new housing, but records te... by epistasis on Friday August 05, 2022 @09:35PM (#32363965)
Dean Preston is one of the most virulently anti-YIMBY politicians out there. He is constantly lying about YIMBY positions and starting fights over nonsense on Twitter.

You and he agree 100% on building new apartments, Preston hates them, and as a rich man living in a very expensive single family home in one of the most expensive cities in the world, he fits right into the NIMBY mould.

However, Preston also believes that homeless people should still be treated like people, a position he shares with YIMBYs. Due to that commonality, but also having irrational hate for YIMBYs, he is sometimes called anti-YIMBY rather than NIMBY.

Re:Marc Andreessen says he’s for new housing, but records te... by orwin on Friday August 05, 2022 @03:01AM (#32352688)
To be more exact: homeless are people priced out of their home.

I've been a month in WV. Huntington and Charleston are plagued by visible users, but not by homelessness. Even daily users there haven't been priced out yet.

Re:Marc Andreessen says he’s for new housing, but records te... by olivermarks on Friday August 05, 2022 @11:53AM (#32357911)
I suggest you read 'San Fransickp by Shellenberger, a book progressives and their media loathe

https://www.amazon.com/San-Fransicko-Progressives-Ruin-Citie...

Re:Marc Andreessen says he’s for new housing, but records te... by epistasis on Friday August 05, 2022 @06:01PM (#32362468)
It's not just progressives that loathe the book, it's everybody in the reality based community. The book is just political pandering.
Re:Marc Andreessen says he’s for new housing, but records te... by olivermarks on Friday August 05, 2022 @07:58PM (#32363362)
'Pandering' to who?! local residents who are sick of the city getting wrecked? Like so many people these days Shellenberger thinks the two dominant political organizations who control everything are morally and ideologically bankrupt. It's only fantasists who believe the slow motion SF disaster is a good thing, and they also appear to think they have some sway with the DNC.
Re:Marc Andreessen says he’s for new housing, but records te... by kelnos on Friday August 05, 2022 @06:44AM (#32354210)
> homelessness is - often and especially in San Francisco - not the result of lack of a home, rather the result of mental illness and drug addiction

You have the causality reversed; mental illness and drug addiction is caused by the stress and hopelessness of homelessness.

Re:Marc Andreessen says he’s for new housing, but records te... by xienze on Friday August 05, 2022 @07:19AM (#32354511)
> You had homeless people because you didn't build enough housing

Ehh I think it has just a _little_ bit more to do with it than just “lack of housing.” If you think the only thing keeping the homeless guy who shits on the sidewalk and shoots up heroin in broad daylight from being a functioning member of society is a house, you are being quite naive.

San Francisco’s housing costs don’t help, but people waaaay underestimate just how much having a permissive attitude towards “the homeless lifestyle” (for lack of a better term) plays a part in attracting people who are incapable of living within the margins of society.

Re:Marc Andreessen says he’s for new housing, but records te... by astrange on Friday August 05, 2022 @07:29AM (#32354607)
You don't know his life story or how representative he is, so that's not very useful for anything. A lot of homeless people live in cars rather than shooting up in the street and are respectable looking people who just can't afford rent.
Re:Marc Andreessen says he’s for new housing, but records te... by cheriot on Friday August 05, 2022 @12:35AM (#32351720)
When we don't have enough housing it means people end up on the street. But people on the street is an argument against more housing?

The crackheads on the street phenomena is an American thing, not a dense housing thing.

Re:Marc Andreessen says he’s for new housing, but records te... by tptacek on Friday August 05, 2022 @12:32AM (#32351689)
That was indeed an idiosyncrasy of your neighborhood.