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Re:Disneyland with Death Penalty by rayiner on Monday August 01, 2022 @03:43PM (#32311113)
As someone from Bangladesh, I read this and think "who cares?" In 1960 Singapore was a poor third world country. Today it's as rich as the US. You cannot understand how significant such a change is to the people of the country unless you've lived in a third world country and really seen what it's like. Whatever draconian measures it took to get there, they were worth it.

Fareed Zakaria's interview with Lee Kuan Yew, the country's modern founder, is required reading for pretty much anyone hoping to understand the developing world, multiculturalism, etc. https://www.jstor.org/stable/20045923

Re:Disneyland with Death Penalty by andrepd on Monday August 01, 2022 @05:02PM (#32311989)
The usual fallacy, which you also make in your post, is assuming that none of that improvement would have happened under a free and democratic regime. That all improvements were because of iron-rule authoritarianism.

Of course there are quite literally thousands of reasons that explain Singapore's economic growth. Attributing everything to only one of them, to the influence of an enlightened dictator, is silly.

Want an opposite anecdote? In my country we experienced our greatest transformation in centuries in our first ~20 years of democracy. The country is radically different now from what it was 50 years ago, and it only happened when democracy and civil liberties suddenly and unexpectedly came into the picture.

Re:Disneyland with Death Penalty by rayiner on Monday August 01, 2022 @06:19PM (#32312811)
It’s not an assumption, but a conclusion based on the evidence. I’m not aware of any Asian, African, or middle eastern country where freedom and democracy led to prosperity. There’s lots of democracies in these places that haven’t been able to translate that into prosperity. On the flip side, China, Japan, Korea, and Singapore are all examples where authoritarian rule has led to prosperity. I’d include Bangladesh these days as an example of that also.

If the country you’re using as an example is in Eastern Europe, I think you may be overlooking key differences. Fareed Zakaria addresses this in his book “the Future of Freedom.” https://www.amazon.com/Future-Freedom-Illiberal-Democracy-Re.... He explains that many of the foundations of liberal democracy were put in place during autocratic regimes: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Future_of_Freedom. Eastern Europe had many building blocks of democracy in place hundreds of years ago. For example https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cossacks.

Re:Disneyland with Death Penalty by zenogantner on Monday August 01, 2022 @06:43PM (#32313075)
Hong Kong had what one could call a starting position comparable to Singapore after WWII and managed to become prosperous with arguably more liberal policies -- until the handover to the PRC -- and came out prosperous, too.

Is Hong Kong now more prosperous, after it moved to authoritarian rule?

What are your criteria for "authoritarian", that you count Japan among authoritarian countries?

What is your evidence that the authoritarian policies were the deciding factor in generating prosperity for these countries?

Re:Disneyland with Death Penalty by rayiner on Monday August 01, 2022 @08:00PM (#32313696)
Hong Kong was a colony where all significant decisions were made by a European power. (Which imposed economic, legal, and political systems that it developed during a monarchy.)

Yeah people had personal freedom, but they couldn’t do anything with it.

Re:Disneyland with Death Penalty by DubiousPusher on Monday August 01, 2022 @06:39PM (#32313035)
Authoritarianism led Japan into a war which utterly destroyed its economy. I'm not sure you can count that as a win for the jackboot.
Re:Disneyland with Death Penalty by rayiner on Monday August 01, 2022 @07:47PM (#32313600)
The barriers to development is not how much wealth the society has currently, but the the absence of the underlying social and economic infrastructure that makes growth possible. Germany was ability to rebound from two wars that destroyed its economy while numerous other countries languish.
Re:Disneyland with Death Penalty by kwere on Tuesday August 02, 2022 @05:05AM (#32316552)
botswana is an example of a country where the first/strong leader built democratic institutions that kept the country safe and growing. Obvious to cite diamonds resources, indigeonus leadership, societial values like private property but those dont diminish its miracle. democracy or people participation can look different in differents countires for sure, but PAP undermine any competition in shady ways
Re:Disneyland with Death Penalty by whoooooo123 on Monday August 01, 2022 @05:32PM (#32312307)
Where are you from?
Re:Disneyland with Death Penalty by pydry on Monday August 01, 2022 @04:19PM (#32311520)
The key features that made it fantastically rich were sitting on one of the world's most strategically located ports, building a lot of soviet style housing and a leader with nowhere to run.

Being a city state means it's hard to hide when things get ugly. Having capitals far away from citizenry, on the other hand - like in myanmar or brazil, makes it easy to be corrupt. This is a well studied phenomenon.

Lee Kuan Yew was palpably afraid in 1965 - especially of the domestic communists. That was probably a good thing in most respects - he knew he had to improve living standards or he'd be strung up. He did, partly by following the good advice of albert winsemius.

It also led to his authoritarian streak and his censor happy ways, of course. The fear ran both ways.

1950s america was also a time where elites were palpably fearful of domestic communists. It also combined with fast improving living standards and the largest scale house building to date. That might just all be a giant coincidence though.

Re:Disneyland with Death Penalty by rayiner on Monday August 01, 2022 @04:49PM (#32311851)
Ascribing Singapore’s wealth to its location as a strategic port is more than a bit odd, considering its always been where it is, but hasn’t been rich this whole time. In classical times Chittagong, the port city where my dad went to college, was one of the most important ports in the world. But that didn’t prevent Bangladesh from being one of the poorest countries in the world in modern times. Clearly there is more at work.

The geography of Singapore gets thrown around a lot to detract from how much Lee Kuan Yew’s deliberate decisions made Singapore what it is today. Which is a shame because that makes it hard for other developing countries to learn from Singapore’s example.

Re:Disneyland with Death Penalty by pydry on Monday August 01, 2022 @04:58PM (#32311947)
It was rich while the British ran the place and they founded the city coz its a good place for a port. The locals just didnt see much of that wealth.

I find the geography doesnt really get thrown around a lot. Lee Kuan Yew's boasts that the city became rich despite "no natural resources" does though, which i find to be misleading.

There is obviously more to the story than just the port but it's important to understand the inbuilt advantages the city did have given the obvious incentive to "replicate" what happened, especially when the story told by the island's cult of personality was so keen to downplay them in favor of his genius leadership and the grit and determination of the people.

(I say cult of personality because I queued up to see his dead body lying in state... and the experience with him, mao, kim jong il and kim il sung wasnt all that different)

Most of the economic development was critically dependent upon the port and its status as a transshipment hub at a global crossroads. Getting Shell to build a refinery in cape town or bhutan would have been a lot harder.

Re:Disneyland with Death Penalty by merry_flame on Thursday August 04, 2022 @08:01AM (#32341749)
Penang, the other key constituent of the British Straits Settlements, provides an excellent counterfactual. Besides location, population, ethnic mix, colonial history, etc. were extremely similar back. Though Penang isn't a poor city by any means, Singapore blows it out of the water. Give LKY credit where credit is due.
Re:Disneyland with Death Penalty by andrepd on Monday August 01, 2022 @05:04PM (#32312015)
>Being a city state means it's hard to hide when things get ugly. Having capitals far away from citizenry, on the other hand - like in myanmar or brazil, makes it easy to be corrupt. This is a well studied phenomenon.

Fascinating, I'd never really thought of this. Do you have a link to any studies about this phenomenon?

Re:Disneyland with Death Penalty by pydry on Tuesday August 02, 2022 @07:42AM (#32317410)
Re:Disneyland with Death Penalty by sib on Monday August 01, 2022 @05:48PM (#32312474)
1950's America also benefited from having created the biggest wartime production economy the world had ever seen, combined with most other "advanced" economies having been turned to rubble. At the end of WWII, the US's GDP was greater than the rest of the world combined.
Re:Disneyland with Death Penalty by ilrwbwrkhv on Monday August 01, 2022 @04:26PM (#32311599)
This. Geopolitics is everything.
Re:Disneyland with Death Penalty by Daishiman on Monday August 01, 2022 @04:32PM (#32311668)
The ruling class’ lack of fear of legitimate backlash by the working class seems certainly like a good thesis to explain the modern Western world’s increasing inequality.
Re:Disneyland with Death Penalty by mc32 on Monday August 01, 2022 @04:20PM (#32311528)
The key is a benevolent "dictator(ship)". A benevolent dictator, from a most utility PoV is better than random search for good government via imperfect democracy.

There is little question that a few countries in Asia benefitted from authoritarianism, some were more kid glovish than others, and obviously some were more violent than others in suppressing dissent. However, they achieved economic success for their people --though not all. The Philippines are an example where corruption as well as high pop growth dragged down progress. China too, initially was too authoritarian and too ideological, till they opened up their economy, or at least removed much of the stigma against "wealth" and invited foreign investment.

Re:Disneyland with Death Penalty by rektide on Monday August 01, 2022 @04:41PM (#32311770)
Keeping your dictators benevolent across decades and generations has proven a significantly hard problem. Even that give this form of government, in my view, far far too much credit.

Singapore is a rare contemporary example of a city-state, & I think that makes the scenario very different from most cases. Using this as an example seems ill suited.

Let's compare to one of your other cited cases, Philippines. Both experienced to degrees the wave of modernization following WW2, a moment of great possibility. Singapore is a very small nation, 1/4 the size of the smallest US State, Rhode Island. Sinagpore is positioned nicely amid a number of other countries giving it close trade access, and at the sea-most tip of a major intercontinental route. The Philippines is almost 100x bigger, about on par with Nevada, the 7th largest state, with much more space & population to tend to. Philippines is non-continugous in extreme, a nation of many islands, further exarcerbating the difficulty of effective governance. Philippines are isolated by a couple hundred miles of sea from other nations, and located rather at the edge of the map.

Singapore is one of the few city-states left on this planet, and it was one permitted to strain & grow at a crucial inflection point in human history.

Re:Disneyland with Death Penalty by pessimizer on Monday August 01, 2022 @06:32PM (#32312960)
> China too, initially was too authoritarian and too ideological, till they opened up their economy

Too authoritarian and too ideological China lifted more people out of poverty faster than had previously happened on the planet. The problem was that Mao was insulated from information and his intentions were filtered through a corrupt collection of creeps who surrounded him, his wife being one of the worst. It eventually made him completely out of touch, and even his intentions became bizarre. The opening of the economy saved a country on fire, and wouldn't have been needed if they had established a proper system with proper succession and safeguards against corruption.

Removing stigma against wealth seriously damaged China culturally; instead of unity in beliefs and values, they drifted into boring nationalism. They used to fight for each other, now they fight for China.

Re:Disneyland with Death Penalty by kwere on Tuesday August 02, 2022 @05:08AM (#32316565)
not cool to have a big single point of failure for whatever millions of chinese were with MAO or are today with XI Jimping.
Re:Disneyland with Death Penalty by sammalloy on Monday August 01, 2022 @05:18PM (#32312151)
> The Philippines are an example where corruption as well as high pop growth dragged down progress. China too, initially was too authoritarian and too ideological

One aspect about this topic that I’ve never seen discussed anywhere, is the bidirectional relationship between countries, such as how authoritarian and corrupt countries export their authoritarianism and corruption to other countries in the same way that the US exports their weapons, capitalism, entertainment, and soft power, but very rarely, if ever, their "freedom", as if that’s the one thing, in spite of the excessive rhetoric, that isn’t fungible.

For an example of what I’m talking about, much of the political chaos and tendency towards authoritarianism in the US that we’ve seen in the post-9/11 era, has been imported from autocratic and authoritarian regimes. From what I’ve read, the first reports of massive online political trolling operations outside of Russia and China were first observed and reported on from the Philippines at the beginning of the Obama admin in the US.

Interviews with regional human rights groups at the time noted that the trolling operations in the Philippines were being used in the same way as repressive regimes in the Middle East had previously used them—to deliberately spread conspiracy theories so as to destabilize the information held by the electorate and to shift the power from independent media sources that provide checks and balances on power to authoritarian regimes which relied on the conspiracy theories to foment confusion and consolidate hegemony.

We saw the same thing occur in the US beginning in 2016, with the rise of Trumpism and its associated conspiracy theories known as QAnon. Was it just a coincidence that their origin point was also the Philippines?

Re:Disneyland with Death Penalty by mc32 on Monday August 01, 2022 @05:33PM (#32312317)
I think it's coincidence. Coöpting narrative and driving narrative were pioneered in modern times at least by Lenin and others --this tool was later copied by Mussolini and Goebbels. It's a tool that is known to work well to split people apart as a part of divide and conquer strategy.

Trolling though, that is also not new. The VoA and North Korean campaigns, to name but two, have promoted all kinds of destabilizing theories. The difference is the media used --Duterte used it to great success and so did ISIS.

Re:Disneyland with Death Penalty by s1artibartfast on Monday August 01, 2022 @04:33PM (#32311681)
>I read this and think "who cares?"

I'm not sure what you were expecting or what what angle you were approaching this article from.

There's more to life than economics and politics. I thought it was an interesting piece of history (especially as a Gibson fan) and also thought provoking aesthetic critique.

Re:Disneyland with Death Penalty by 12many on Monday August 01, 2022 @05:15PM (#32312119)
If you read his comment a little further you'll see his point... "You cannot understand how significant such a change is to the people of the country unless you've lived in a third world country and really seen what it's like"... to spell it out for you, he's saying no one from the once third world cares what Gibson thinks of Singapore because if you haven't lived 3rd world you don't understand the greatness that comes from Singapore now. Although I don't agree with the draconian measures taken, I can support that they're happier now than before, something most people from first world countries fail to see, because you have no idea what it's like living in a third world.
Re:Disneyland with Death Penalty by s1artibartfast on Monday August 01, 2022 @06:52PM (#32313156)
But I don't think the criticism was ever about economic development, or hell, even general happiness in Singapore.

Gibson even said "Singapore's destiny will be to become nothing more than a smug, neo-Swiss enclave of order and prosperity, amid a sea of unthinkable... weirdness."

It was a commentary on culture and human behavior, an orthogonal topic.

He wasn't suggesting Singapore sacrifice economics for culture, or as far as I can tell, making any suggestion at all.

It is weird that so many people conflate the topics, as if art, history, and as Gibson would put it "weirdness" are inherently in conflict with material prosperity.

Re:Disneyland with Death Penalty by bergenty on Monday August 01, 2022 @06:34PM (#32312972)
But you can agree that living under a draconian authoritarian government is not ideal? Maybe it is to abject povert but still not something to hold up as an epitome of utopia? That’s what this article does. Did good things? Yes. Got there in a way people want to continue to live? A resounding no.
Re:Disneyland with Death Penalty by claudiawerner on Monday August 01, 2022 @05:00PM (#32311966)
It's interesting that most responses I see day to day in regards to cultural and social critiques is generally to fall back on a line similar to "at least it's not X" where the comparable features are oriented solely around the amount of wealth, and quite often, not even a concern for how that wealth is distributed.

>Whatever draconian measures it took to get there, they were worth it.

I feel as though most lovers of liberty would disagree with this statement, whether it comes from the right wing or the left wing; it could justify literally any horror to humanity, and at worst justifies waiting out decades of repression and poor quality of life for anticipated gains for two generations of people down the line. I'm reminded that a similar argument is used to justify the maintenance of sweatshops.

Re:Disneyland with Death Penalty by trhway on Monday August 01, 2022 @04:08PM (#32311421)
>multiculturalism

unfortunately that word more and more means "your universal human rights don't apply here". Many cultures across the world are decades and even centuries behind when it comes to human rights. The naturally authoritarian regimes there are usually don't care that much about the culture and only using that word to protect their power as the societal move forward to progress threatens that power. Among the most glaring examples these days - traditionalist/conservative Russia using tremendous violence trying to reign in the Ukrainian people's move to progress with Russia being one of the leaders today in the use of "multiculturalism" as a guise to cover its violence.

Re:Disneyland with Death Penalty by themaninthedark on Monday August 01, 2022 @04:40PM (#32311751)
>your universal human rights

Are a lie. You only have the rights that you are able to wrest away from your government and those are far from universal.

Look at freedom of speech for example, then try to criticize the royal family when in Thailand.

Of look at your "right to self-defense", then look at how several western countries are acting in that regard. Or NYC even.

The US constitution states that only the powers enumerated are given to the government and everything else is reserved for the people. But look at how we act when our political adversaries are silenced or trampled, "Show me where in the constitution you have that right". We are willing to throw away our power to hurt those we find distasteful.

There is nothing universal about rights, except that you must win them through struggle and guard them jealously

Re:Disneyland with Death Penalty by rayiner on Monday August 01, 2022 @04:40PM (#32311752)
It’s quite remarkable to me that the concept of “universal human rights” has made the jump from its Judeo-Christian origin—where there is a universal God to which to ascribe these universal rights—to secular thought. I don’t expect “universal human rights” are anything that would show up in an autopsy or other empirical investigation?

Where do these “universal human rights” come from? Who decides what they are? It’s hard to overlook the fact that, in practice, “universal human rights” means “the morals beliefs of people of European descent.” (Observe the downvotes to my comment below describing how Asians view the obligations of children to their parents.)

Re:Disneyland with Death Penalty by aerostable_slug on Monday August 01, 2022 @05:04PM (#32312013)
Natural law does not depend upon religious orthodoxy, though it is often associated with it. One can defend natural rights from the perspective of being inherent in our existence as rational beings rather than Sky-King's (Sky-Kingses' for the polytheistic?) decree.

Further, large numbers of people with at least some theistic leanings were/are nevertheless adherents to legal positivism, which explains how you can have Catholics or Lutherans that were okay with the Nuremberg Laws, for example.

Re:Disneyland with Death Penalty by rayiner on Monday August 01, 2022 @10:05PM (#32314423)
> One can defend natural rights from the perspective of being inherent in our existence as rational beings rather than Sky-King's (Sky-Kingses' for the polytheistic?) decree.

That’s just creating a religion, complete with supernatural assertions—things that are “inherent our existence” but can’t be established empirically—without copping to it.

Re:Disneyland with Death Penalty by anigbrowl on Monday August 01, 2022 @05:15PM (#32312125)
I dare you to make this same argument in the context of the 2nd Amendment and see how well it goes down with your conservative friends.
Re:Disneyland with Death Penalty by rayiner on Monday August 01, 2022 @10:31PM (#32314536)
The mainstream conservative argument for the second amendment would be that it reflects our history and tradition; our forefathers adopted the second amendment based on their experience building a free society and it’s the law of the land until the proper procedures are followed to change it. But I don’t think I’d rile up any conservatives if I pointed out that say Japan has a different history and tradition, and that it’s not a violation of any “universal human rights” for them to restrict firearms ownership. They might assert that our way is better than the Japanese way, but few would deny that the Japanese have the right and the prerogative to restrict firearms ownership if that’s what they choose to do.

That is not to say that conservatives don’t believe in “universal human rights”—for example those who believe that a society can’t permit abortion because it violates the right to life. But conservatives don’t deny that they believe in a God we can’t see that makes rules for the world.

“Universal human rights” tends to reflect in practice the individualistic quasi-religious beliefs of European-descended liberals. In an international context it functions as a form of cultural supremacy by people who claim to reject such ideas. But isn’t it curious how on everything from the nature of marriage, to familial obligation, to sexual morality, to criminal justice, to when it’s okay to extinguish nascent human life, societies run by white people have figured out the correct “universal” answer while Bangladeshis, Nigerians, and apparently even Singaporeans have got it all wrong? This is a harder road to hoe for people who claim not to believe that their society is chosen by God to be a shining city on a hill.