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Re:Nuclear energy is clean by jaredklewis on Monday August 01, 2022 @01:52AM (#32302529)
I agree with some of your criticism of the article, but I disagree that nuclear waste is a problem.

Yes, we have to store it somewhere. But all US plants combined make ~5k cubic meters of nuclear waste a year. To put that in perspective, the strategic oil reserve is 100 million cubic meters. A single aircraft carrier is 2 million cubic meters.

Political will aside, finding a place to store this stuff doesn’t seem like a massive problem.

Re:Nuclear energy is clean by smartmic on Monday August 01, 2022 @02:59AM (#32302921)
You just considered one axis of the waste properties. It must also be in the equation that the waste will remain radioactive and toxic for thousands of years, far beyond the time horizon of what a normal human brain is capable of processing. Also, the effects (spatial, biological) if the waste is released for whatever reason (which we may not even know now). So the debt we transfer to future generations goes far, too far, beyond just a question what space is required for the waste.
Re:Nuclear energy is clean by freeqaz on Monday August 01, 2022 @03:27AM (#32303120)
I really like the argument of just keeping the waste on site at the reactors. They're already heavily guarded and everybody is trained to deal with the waste + safety inspections happen regularly.

Just keep the waste on site and then, if a plant is decommissioned, add it to another reactor's pile.

It's not a permanent solution for millions of years, but it's also likely fine for the next 100 years and that's a reasonable tradeoff (imo).

Re:Nuclear energy is clean by funklute on Monday August 01, 2022 @03:11AM (#32302990)
> far beyond the time horizon of what a normal human brain is capable of processing

This is just hyperbole though. All the other arguments aside, it's perfectly possible for humans to plan, and make risk estimates, beyond a human life span.

Re:Nuclear energy is clean by ben_w on Monday August 01, 2022 @05:34AM (#32303755)
Some humans can plan well over such horizons, but the reason we even need to have this discussion now is that the people in charge 70 years ago didn't care to plan to mitigate against the carbon dioxide from fossil fuel plants, even though Svante Arrhenius calculated in 1896(!) that doubling atmospheric CO2 concentrations would increase Earth's temperature 4-6 °C (depending in part on which Wikipedia reference I follow).
Re:Nuclear energy is clean by tralarpa on Monday August 01, 2022 @05:24AM (#32303682)
The Germans could not even properly manage one of their test locations (for weak and medium-level radioactive nuclear waste, not for waste from nuclear plants) longer than a few decades. One person who worked there said that after a few years they didn't know anymore what and how much exactly was stored there.
Re:Nuclear energy is clean by natmaka on Tuesday August 02, 2022 @01:45AM (#32315519)
Re:Nuclear energy is clean by raverbashing on Monday August 01, 2022 @03:11AM (#32302991)
We're making the Earth unhinhabitable for millions of people already with climate change

I think a small pile of hot rubbish well hidden is the least of our problems

Re:Nuclear energy is clean by natmaka on Tuesday August 02, 2022 @01:46AM (#32315523)
If renewables are adequate there is no need for this hot rubbish.
Re:Nuclear energy is clean by koffiezet on Tuesday August 02, 2022 @04:22AM (#32316297)
Well, sadly they are not
Re:Nuclear energy is clean by jaredklewis on Monday August 01, 2022 @03:30PM (#32310980)
Sure, easy to grant you that Nuclear is not perfect.

But I'm not comparing Nuclear to perfection; I'm comparing it to existing alternatives. Climate change is real, the stakes are high, and nuclear brings a lot to the table.

Nuclear can provide base load energy. To provide base load with renewables requires battery storage that doesn't exist. I'm sure the technology exists but whether because expense or other issues, energy grids around the world don't use grid level storage. And consumers are not interested in trading a little reliability for greener grids; they consistently insist that dirty alternatives close the gap.

And very rough estimate here (it is going to vary considerably based on the solar panels and plant in question, but the principle is unchanged): 1 nuclear plant is roughly 4,000 sq km of solar panels. So like 80 Manhattans ever inch of it a solar panel array. The environmental destruction caused by solar panel array and wind farms is real. The amount of mining required to create the materials needed for 4k solar panels also has a very high environmental cost. Nuclear is compact and requires less materials.

We deal with all kinds of waste that we know would be damaging if it was released in the environment. Radioactivity is dangerous, but I would argue far better understood than many other phenomenon (like micro plastics). It is a challenge, but there is no avoiding challenges. The tradeoffs feel well worth it to me.

Re:Nuclear energy is clean by slavik81 on Monday August 01, 2022 @05:00AM (#32303569)
Spent fuel will remain toxic forever. Uranium and plutonium are heavy metals. They will have to be treated as dangerous substances from now until the end of time, much like lead or mercury.
Re:Nuclear energy is clean by belorn on Monday August 01, 2022 @06:54AM (#32304244)
Northern Sweden is known for its iron mines. What people might not know is that if you live anywhere near where such mining has occurred (many miles away from the actually mining site), it is strongly recommended that people have detectors for radium. Obviously, water that is close to mining sites is generally not advisable to drink. Mining just bring up a lot of toxic things that the human body react badly with.
Re:Nuclear energy is clean by aoeusnth1 on Monday August 01, 2022 @11:15AM (#32307189)
What percentage of the earth’s crust is lead? How does that compare to spent fuel?
Re:Nuclear energy is clean by slavik81 on Monday August 01, 2022 @03:34PM (#32311028)
Approximately 0.0013% and 0%, respectively. I'm not sure what you're getting at.

My point is that we already deal with many substances that are toxic forever. Something about the danger reducing over the course of thousands of years seems to make people more concerned about the future than when the danger is permanent.

Re:Nuclear energy is clean by arinlen on Monday August 01, 2022 @02:56AM (#32302896)
> Yes, we have to store it somewhere. But all US plants combined make ~5k cubic meters of nuclear waste a year.

And all those extra 5k cubic meters per year of nuclear waste needs to be stored for around a million years until they are again safe.

Re:Nuclear energy is clean by kubami on Monday August 01, 2022 @04:30AM (#32303421)
If you read the article you'd see it's not "million years" but ~300.
Re:Nuclear energy is clean by cycomanic on Monday August 01, 2022 @10:09AM (#32306148)
Yes it's 300 years, because of magic which somehow makes recycling feasible and let's us ignore all the parts which have lifetimes longer than 300 years. That's not a valid argument. So far nobody has managed to come up with a economically and ecologically feasible way to recycle nuclear waste. The French Le Havre site is primarily run for military reasons and multiples the amount of waste. Admittedly lower grade waste, but it still needs to be kept away from people for thousands of years.
Re:Nuclear energy is clean by jpgvm on Monday August 01, 2022 @08:37AM (#32305099)
Even if it was a million years it wouldn't matter. The US has the Nevada desert which is effectively a barren wasteland, just shove it in a bunch of containers and leave it there. They already do that for removed nuclear reactors from military vessels (which is actually so it can be seen in satellite imagery to fulfill international treaty requirements.
Re:Nuclear energy is clean by arinlen on Monday August 01, 2022 @09:13AM (#32305467)
> Even if it was a million years it wouldn't matter.

This take is absurd. Humanity barely exists for a few thousand years and you somehow assume that it's feasible and economically justifiable to create a health and security hazard that will exist until the end of times.

And all for what? Because you want to shave off a few cents from an energy bill?

Re:Nuclear energy is clean by tekknik on Monday August 01, 2022 @10:05PM (#32314422)
if we solve the clean energy problem, and energy becomes abundant, then that all becomes very usable land.
Re:Nuclear energy is clean by jpgvm on Wednesday August 03, 2022 @02:39PM (#32335321)
And if we don't we all die. Seems like an easy choice to me.
Re:Nuclear energy is clean by TedShiller on Monday August 01, 2022 @04:28AM (#32303414)
> Political will aside, finding a place to store this stuff doesn’t seem like a massive problem.

How about your backyard?

Re:Nuclear energy is clean by jaredklewis on Monday August 01, 2022 @09:33AM (#32305709)
In what sense?

In the literal backyard of my house? No. Of course, I also support windmills, water reservoirs, lithium mining, and electric car factories and don't want any of those in my literal backyard either. The idea that it is hypocritical to advocate anything you wouldn’t want on your own residential property seems like such an obviously ridiculous idea, I'm not sure it makes sense to rebut. There are countless things society wants (factories, mines, landfills, warehouses, etc…) that don’t make sense to do in residential areas.

In my figurative backyard, like the state I live in? Sure, I would definitely support California creating a nuclear waste storage facility.

This isn't really anything groundbreaking. We already have millions of acres of landfills in the US. Like radioactive waste, trash is basically permanent and will be decomposing for at least hundreds of years. And no one wants a landfill "in their backyard," but somehow we still managed to create the thousands of landfills we have today. We can spare a few dozen acres to build a nuclear waste facility.

Re:Nuclear energy is clean by TedShiller on Monday August 01, 2022 @10:52AM (#32306785)
> In the literal backyard of my house? No.

Ok, so storage is a problem.

Re:Nuclear energy is clean by jaredklewis on Monday August 01, 2022 @08:27PM (#32313860)
Do you not throw anything away? All the trash you've ever created is kept in a landfill on your own property? Impressive!
Re:Nuclear energy is clean by TedShiller on Monday August 01, 2022 @09:51PM (#32314346)
My trash and your trash isn’t toxic to millions of people for millennia
Re:Nuclear energy is clean by Blammar on Monday August 01, 2022 @04:56AM (#32303550)
If I can access the fuel remaining in the rods, sure! I always wanted a 15kw thermal reactor in my back yard... just need a few cubic meters of Peltier pods...
Re:Nuclear energy is clean by ben_w on Monday August 01, 2022 @05:49AM (#32303829)
I'd love to have a backyard big enough for that.

The only problems I would have with it being in my hypothetical back yard would be other people thinking it was dangerous, leading to an urban decay cycle (this also applies to property with unlucky numbers, like 13 in the anglosphere), and/or lots of protesters and/or would-be terrorists not realising how deep the stuff is buried nor now hard it is to shift a multi-ton concrete-filled steel barrel.

Re:Nuclear energy is clean by franga2000 on Monday August 01, 2022 @05:16AM (#32303646)
I don't have a backyard, but if it turned out to be the most effective and safe solution to, let's say, dig a deep borehole under my hypothetical lawn, drop the waste down there and seal it back up, why not?

From what I know of deep geological storage, I wouldn't mind living in a house on top of one of these sites. Since they're usually in the middle of nowhere, it would probably be even safer than living in a polluted city.

Re:Nuclear energy is clean by TedShiller on Monday August 01, 2022 @11:57AM (#32307934)
> I don't have a backyard

How convenient

Re:Nuclear energy is clean by franga2000 on Monday August 01, 2022 @12:09PM (#32308150)
wow, yes, so convenient that the prospect of having a house is nothing but an unrealistic dream for my generation...

What's your point??

Re:Nuclear energy is clean by TedShiller on Monday August 01, 2022 @09:51PM (#32314350)
If I had billions I’d give it all away. I promise.