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Re:RISC-V based single board computers are getting there by javajosh on Sunday July 31, 2022 @05:48PM (#32299179)
To what extent do we need computers? They feel indispensable but we could go back to more labor intensive information systems. And that wouldnt be all bad.
Re:RISC-V based single board computers are getting there by xyzzy123 on Sunday July 31, 2022 @06:09PM (#32299330)
It's a good question, if we didn't have small microprocessors the alternatives would tend to be more material intensive (eg mechanical governors or clockwork) or be less efficient.

We'd lose the Internet and cellphones, have to go back to mechanical telephone exchanges.

I think we would miss CNC a lot, it's how the majority of production work gets done now in many industries, the manual machines are in the corner for one-offs.

The computer controlled machines also tend to be making parts or doing QC or measurement to support the non computerised ones. So sure your injection moulder or die cutter might not need too many chips but wait until the molds and tooling wear out.

Although who can send your factory orders anyway...

Payments, payroll, inventory, invoicing. Small words but huge implications.

We'd lose basically all capacity to print (billboards, t-shirts, books, office memos etc) , which seems bad. Like we had less digital ways to do all that stuff but they went away. It's not easy to go back.

Medical imaging gone except for maybe the x-ray.

Behind the scenes all kinds of process control would disappear which would require massive rework. We'd have to retool most industrial processes to get computers out of the control loops. We'd lose the electric grid until people figured out how to decomputerise it. Probably trains, traffic lights, airlines, cars, shipping would be impacted in a variety of fundamental ways.

The postal service would need to be re-architected (current reliance on parcel sorters and scanners).

We'd have to move back to analog tv, radio and media production workflows would change dramatically.

It's an interesting exercise to try and figure out what industries would hurt the most if chips disappeared tomorrow, I'm pretty sure it would be a catastrophe but it's not easy to follow it all through.

Re:RISC-V based single board computers are getting there by bobthepanda on Sunday July 31, 2022 @08:30PM (#32300339)
Mechanical solutions tend to be slower and also less reliable (more moving parts = more points of failure)

Aviation would just cease to function, nearly every commercial airliner is heavily dependent on computer control, to say nothing of things like the reservation systems that are also very complex (pricing flights is a very complex use case for algorithms)

Re:RISC-V based single board computers are getting there by kragen on Sunday July 31, 2022 @08:43PM (#32300433)
Airplanes do predate computers, and there are plenty of airlines still flying that remain operable without electric power, even some commercial airliners.
Re:RISC-V based single board computers are getting there by bobthepanda on Sunday July 31, 2022 @08:59PM (#32300585)
Operable in an emergency, and reasonable to do for normal daily operations, are two very different things.
Re:RISC-V based single board computers are getting there by justinclift on Monday August 01, 2022 @02:11AM (#32302648)
True, but if "without computers" became the norm (with a good lead up time), then ways to make it work sounds like it could happen.
Re:RISC-V based single board computers are getting there by lrem on Monday August 01, 2022 @04:26AM (#32303403)
Maybe, but you're talking about "a generation, or more" kind of lead time. For a good start you have roughly no pilots able to safely fly your computer-free planes and no instructors either. So once you've managed to design the controls, you need to bootstrap your education pipeline on using them.
Re:RISC-V based single board computers are getting there by kragen on Monday August 01, 2022 @07:57PM (#32313679)
I think you're imagining that current airliners and current flight instruction work very differently than they actually do. A very large fraction of flight instruction is carried out in planes that predate the embedded-computers era, starting in roughly 01975, and the more recent planes that carry most commercial air traffic are designed to simulate those computer-free planes as closely as possible.

Yeah, maybe there would be a huge spike in aviation risk, so instead of one flight in ten million crashing, one flight in a hundred thousand would crash, but that's still not enough for aviation to become a dominant cause of death for weekly business air commuters. People would freak out when they watched the news but only in countries that hand over the reins of society to nervous nellies would it be a real obstacle to aviation.

Re:RISC-V based single board computers are getting there by lrem on Wednesday August 03, 2022 @03:26AM (#32328656)
I was actually thinking about the thing you mentioned. While the flight properties of modern planes kept changing, we were using computers to emulate flying like a half a century old much smaller plane. Now that emulation would be gone.
Re:RISC-V based single board computers are getting there by bobthepanda on Wednesday August 03, 2022 @04:09PM (#32336178)
Computers also eliminated the flight engineer position. So at the very least flying would be much more costly.
Re:RISC-V based single board computers are getting there by justinclift on Tuesday August 02, 2022 @07:13PM (#32325495)
Um, what's with the 5 digit year dates? It makes reading your comments a pita. :(
Re:RISC-V based single board computers are getting there by kragen on Tuesday August 09, 2022 @04:36PM (#32403920)
Condolences.
Re:RISC-V based single board computers are getting there by numpad0 on Monday August 01, 2022 @08:05AM (#32304808)
Concorde is largely steampunk.
Re:RISC-V based single board computers are getting there by bobthepanda on Monday August 01, 2022 @12:03PM (#32308044)
Concorde is literally a museum piece that hasn't flown in 20 years, because even in retirement it was extremely old, and it is extremely noisy and gas-guzzling.
Re:RISC-V based single board computers are getting there by jonjacky on Monday August 01, 2022 @12:57PM (#32308924)
Payments, payroll, inventory, invoicing. ...

This was widely done with tube computers in the 1950s. The first commercial computer, Univac, was introduced in 1951.

Medical imaging gone except for maybe the x-ray.

The first commercial CT scanner in the 1970s used a Data General Nova minicomputer, which used small-scale integrated circuit logic chips, but did not include a microprocessor.

Behind the scenes all kinds of process control would disappear ...

The early PDP-8 minicomputers introduced in 1965 used discrete transitors, no integrated circuits. They were used in industrial control applications.

Re:RISC-V based single board computers are getting there by kevin_thibedeau on Monday August 01, 2022 @02:57AM (#32302907)
CNC/NC predates the microprocessor. It just wasn't practical for wide scale use without CAD.
Re:RISC-V based single board computers are getting there by NegativeLatency on Sunday July 31, 2022 @08:52PM (#32300524)
Personally I’d love to return to hand painted signs and advertising for businesses.

IMO they have way more character but also it would be harder to slap up giant billboards for products and services I’m not interested in.

Re:RISC-V based single board computers are getting there by mrginger on Monday August 01, 2022 @12:49AM (#32302188)
Slightly terrifying if you ponder the implications of a significant solar flare hitting the planet in this day and age.
Re:RISC-V based single board computers are getting there by arise on Sunday July 31, 2022 @06:40PM (#32299547)
Farmers use GPS and other technologies to plant crops with inch-level accuracy while maximizing land utilization and minimizing fuel/fertilizer. Take that away and somebody's going to starve (or start a war to keep from starving). This might play out in Africa soon with the collapse of Ukrainian grain imports.
Re:RISC-V based single board computers are getting there by imtringued on Monday August 01, 2022 @02:44AM (#32302827)
And then they till the soil and let most of their money (fertilizer) run off (erosion).
Re:RISC-V based single board computers are getting there by dragonmost on Sunday July 31, 2022 @05:58PM (#32299259)
We need chips in everything. Cars could work without them but would be much less efficient and bad for the environnement. Lots of very important medical devices rely on chips or full computers. I would like to see the media industry roll back to a lower tech leaving only the big and very bias information go through. Imagine how hard it would be to keep them accountable.

Is it possible to live without computers? Yes, but you don't want to.

Re:RISC-V based single board computers are getting there by viraptor on Sunday July 31, 2022 @07:43PM (#32300012)
I feel like that's true, but the scale is misleading. We could run most of the things we need with very small chips production. A lot of usage could be removed (most of entertainment), lots of business use could be scaled down (how many businesses need basically a spreadsheet and a filing system equivalent). There will be special usage requiring hitech chips or course. But we can seriously scale down our electronics usage without a negative civilisation impact. The pocket device I write this on has enough power to run what an office of 10 people needs to properly run if we adjust the software to match.
Re:RISC-V based single board computers are getting there by sacrosancty on Monday August 01, 2022 @12:35AM (#32302115)
If processors were much more interchangeable than they are, we could scavenge chips from less important devices, or at least production that was destined for them, and put them in more important ones. I hope RISC-V can help provide this kind of buffer against short term shocks. For major civilizational collapse where we can't even build new fabs, then we probably won't have much need for new chips anyway, so it's moot.
Re:RISC-V based single board computers are getting there by Gordonjcp on Monday August 01, 2022 @04:37AM (#32303457)
> Cars could work without them but would be much less efficient and bad for the environnement.

Not as much as you think. Modern cars aren't a whole lot more efficient than and are just about as clean as they were 30 years ago. Most of the electronics in modern cars is for relatively useless stuff like lane keeping assist and that thing that makes the indicators blink in a cool pattern.

You can have cars just as clean as modern ones with 1980s-level microcontrollers in the ECUs. You don't even really need catalytic converters, either, because the closed-loop fuelling systems that use a lambda sensor to measure how complete combustion is.

We could rid cities of pollution right now, completely, by converting all the internal combustion engine vehicles to run on propane instead of petrol or diesel. This doesn't make finance companies or car companies any money, so it won't happen.

Re:RISC-V based single board computers are getting there by jonjacky on Monday August 01, 2022 @12:31PM (#32308556)
You don't need chips for computers. Until the mid-1960s no computers used chips. The early PDP-8 models (introduced beginning in 1965) were desktop minicomputers made entirely with discrete transistors and magnetic core memories. They were used in lots of automated process-control applications.

There is some confusion in this question and many of the reponses here between any electronics (computation and control using tubes dates from WWII at least), transistors (which became widely available in the mid-1950s, all-transistor computers reached the market in 1959), small scale integrated circuits that contained (for example) several logic gates or a few flip-flops (which reached the market in the mid-late 1960s) which were used to build computers but also many simpler electronic control devices, and finally microprocessors which finally reached the market about 1975.

Any electronics that reached the market before the mid or late 1970s did not use microprocessors. For example, the first commercial CT scanner used a Data General Nova minicomputer, which used small-scale integrated circuit logic gates, but did not use a microprocessor. The original Pong arcade game used around 60 small-scale integrated circuit logic gates, but no microprocessor.

If we didn't have integrated circuits, but were stuck with 1959 discrete transistors, or we didn't have microprocessors, but were stuck with 1974 small-scale integrated circuits, we could still have a pretty hi-tech world. There would be more emphasis on optimized design of special-purpose devices - that original Pong game is an example.

Re:RISC-V based single board computers are getting there by retrac on Sunday July 31, 2022 @10:04PM (#32301071)
Something happened in the 1950s - 1960s economically. [1] It is really as remarkable in its own right, as the industrial revolution had been. The rate of economic growth, slow but steady since the industrial revolution, started to accelerate.

It's impossible to really quantify this kind of thing, probably. And the causes were numerous (it's also an era of relative peace, for example). Still. I've always suspected much, maybe most of it, is due to to a mix of telecommunications, computer automation, and computer-based knowledge-amplification.

[1] https://ourworldindata.org/grapher/exports/GDP-per-capita-in...

Re:RISC-V based single board computers are getting there by aldonius on Sunday July 31, 2022 @11:24PM (#32301647)
The point you're making is more visible in log form:

https://ourworldindata.org/grapher/gdp-per-capita-in-the-uk-...