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Re:Mission to reach and operate at the focal region of the s... by phkahler on Thursday July 28, 2022 @09:20AM (#32263891)
Didn't they say the spacecraft will have to move around to get each pixel? That means the planet would turn between pixels and you wouldn't get a coherent image. It would also take a very long time to cover 10's of thousands of pixels. May need to send many imagers and combine the results...
Re:Mission to reach and operate at the focal region of the s... by WithinReason on Thursday July 28, 2022 @10:08AM (#32264503)
I wonder if you could use just 1 spacecraft and actually exploit the rotation of the planet to "scan" the planet surface in 1 dimension. The movement of your telescope would provide the other dimension, so in a slow fly-through you could get a 2D image of the planet surface. So e.g. imaging a 12000 km (Earth-size) planet at 10 km/pixel would take 1200 planet rotations, each providing a row of pixels, taking about 3 years assuming it's rotating at the speed of Earth. You would just have to know ahead of time the orientation of the planet's axis of rotation so you approach the "focal region" from the right angle.
Re:Mission to reach and operate at the focal region of the s... by ncmncm on Thursday July 28, 2022 @01:55PM (#32267926)
Main thing is that you don't get an image, but a single line of pixels.

Such a line taken of Earth is likely to have nothing in it but ocean and clouds.

If you sent a swarm, each would get its own line of pixels, as many lines as spacecraft.

Re:Mission to reach and operate at the focal region of the s... by hinkley on Thursday July 28, 2022 @05:54PM (#32270548)
A few years ago I saw that someone had taken a photo of their back yard using a single light sensor.

The idea was that at each moment of each day, the sun was in a different spot in the sky, and each day it shifted toward or away from the equator. So they stitched the samples together mathematically based on timestamp and a 3d projection of the earth. You could tell it was a backyard, but it was very gauzy, like that moment when you first wake after a nap.

Re:Mission to reach and operate at the focal region of the s... by floxy on Thursday July 28, 2022 @07:45PM (#32271431)
Re:Mission to reach and operate at the focal region of the s... by nomel on Thursday July 28, 2022 @02:46PM (#32268578)
This is how scanners (the paper/photo kind) work, a single row of pixels, and you can make a wicked camera from one: https://www.engadget.com/2014-12-30-scanner-camera.html
Re:Mission to reach and operate at the focal region of the s... by jjoonathan on Thursday July 28, 2022 @03:38PM (#32269194)
The single line comes from the trajectory of the spacecraft as it flies through the focus point, reading one pixel at a time. Stopping and rastering is not possible and not close to possible with current technology. Of course, you still want a raster grid, but you have to obtain the grid by sending a swarm of different spacecraft. They each collect a line as they fly through the focus point, and then you can assemble the lines into a grid.
Re:Mission to reach and operate at the focal region of the s... by ncmncm on Friday July 29, 2022 @01:42AM (#32273542)
Except, it is not.

The spacecraft would be taking one pixel, then awhile later another pixel, then another. It could get all kinds of dimensional details at each pixel, with full spectra, polarization, what have you, but just one at a time, unlike your scanner bed, which collects many thousands simultaneously, with as many separate optical sensor elements.

After it has collected the whole series, that would be the one, thin row of pixels sent home.

The next spacecraft over could collect another line and send that, watching a different bit of planet surface. Two thin line samples would not be very informative, but hundreds could be.

It is actually, potentially, a bit better: the planet would be rotating while the spacecraft moves between pixel points, and the spacecraft could continue sampling the entire time, getting at a series of adjacent bits of the planet, until the planet rotates to where the first was sampled, and you can sample the next spot over, looking from an infinitesimally different angle. So, possibly, it is scanning a line across the planet's surface, and then later another line nearby. But each line would cover almost the same line as last time.

Of course what it really would do is just watch the planet continuously for years, and send literally everything back, where the planet's presumed rotation could be puzzled out, and then everything could be stitched together afterward. Data from a single probe might suffice to yield an image.

In effect, the spacecraft moving is sweeping across one axis very, very slowly, and the planet's rotation is sweeping on another, albeit probably not one at 90 degrees, but at some angle to the first. (It would be very unlucky for the two to align, but wholly possible.)

Since all this would happen over days and years, the image would end up with an average of that many years' weather, so nothing like a snapshot. But if cloud cover ever breaks, any continents shores would anyway be sharp.

Re:Mission to reach and operate at the focal region of the s... by nomel on Friday July 29, 2022 @12:55PM (#32279277)
You're describing the same concept.

> The spacecraft would be taking one pixel, then awhile later another pixel, then another.

This is what each pixel in scanners CCD does. In his example, the swarm would be like the row of pixels.

> unlike your scanner bed, which collects many thousands simultaneously

The swarm would.

> watching a different bit of planet surface. Two thin line samples would not be very informative, but hundreds could be.

You would want to do this simultaneously, like in a scanner, with some distance between the sensors, so they could sample different "thin lines" of the planet, which could be stitched together to make one image, just as in a scanner. No need to wait. Regardless, a rigid physical or temporal lock isn't really required here. The concept is the same. You could arrange the swarm as a line, diagonal, grid, whatever.

Re:Mission to reach and operate at the focal region of the s... by ncmncm on Friday July 29, 2022 @04:24PM (#32281379)
Simultaneity would be pointless, because the next pixel over, from any given probe, would be from (earth-) weeks later. It would pick up samples from each planetary day in between, too, but each would almost completely overlap the previous day's, stepping out until the probe has gone enough distance to be sampling a separate bit of surface. Some information might be teased out of the overlapping pixels, but they would all be from different days.

It would be bad luck to choose a Venus-analog to map.

Re:Mission to reach and operate at the focal region of the s... by nomel on Friday July 29, 2022 @04:46PM (#32281574)
> Simultaneity would be pointless

I might have some fundamental misunderstanding, because I don't understand how this could be.

> stepping out until the probe has gone enough distance to be sampling a separate bit of surface.

Why not have a probe already at that distance, so it's gathering something of that surface?

My assumption here (knowing very little of gravitational lensing) is that the gravitational lens still has the concept of an "image surface", where a translation in that image surfaces can be mapped to some translation in the projection of the thing being viewed. Are you saying that if I put two probes up, with some appropriate spacing between, they can't collect different stripes of the same surface, at the same time?

Re:Mission to reach and operate at the focal region of the s... by ncmncm on Sunday July 31, 2022 @03:25AM (#32293907)
Same time for the probes is easy. Same time for the planet is harder.

But if the probes are recording continuously and sending it all back, you can probably identify points that are simultaneous on two tracks, after the fact.

But that gives you just a scattering of points on that day. The next pixel over, for each probe, will be for a different planetary day. Your image, stitched together from all the lines returned by all the probes, is an image smeared over at least as many days as pixels in each line.

Re:Mission to reach and operate at the focal region of the s... by marmakoide on Thursday July 28, 2022 @05:16PM (#32270214)
Having access to a single pixel of a rotating object is enough to get an image. It's more or less the 3d equivalent of an inverse Radon transform
Re:Mission to reach and operate at the focal region of the s... by jackmott on Thursday July 28, 2022 @09:27AM (#32263981)
These are all easily solved problems we are familiar with compared to getting spaceships there accurately. But yes usually these plans call for a swarm of these ships