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Re:Magnus Carlsen to give up World Championship title by Andrew_nenakhov on Wednesday July 20, 2022 @08:24AM (#32164730)
> And against Nepo it was a steamroll, understandably meeting him again isn't that exciting.

The first half of the match wasn't even close to a steamroll. It's just Ian broke mentally after that famous 6th game. The candidate tournament showed that he had more than recovered from that loss and I think he would be in a much better shape to challenge Carlsen again. Also, with Carlsen's current attitude, it is quite possible that he would be closer to breaking first. (One may assume he already broke since he gives up the title without a fight)

Re:Magnus Carlsen to give up World Championship title by toolz on Wednesday July 20, 2022 @09:23AM (#32165448)
nepo at candidates was in my opinion favored to beat magnus...he dominated the candidates harder than anyone else has in the history of the candidate matches - and it was not an easy pool of candidates, either. Sure, there were a lot of sloppy games, but only a couple vs nepo - with one of them being after the 1st place spot had been guaranteed.

If nepo plays like he did in the candidates, I would not be so quick to favor magnus.

Re:Magnus Carlsen to give up World Championship title by tzs on Wednesday July 20, 2022 @11:48AM (#32167454)
> nepo at candidates was in my opinion favored to beat magnus...he dominated the candidates harder than anyone else has in the history of the candidate matches - and it was not an easy pool of candidates, either.

What about Fischer? The format was a little different then, but here was his route to the Championship.

1. Won the Interzonal tournament 18.5/23 (+15-1=7). The top 8 from the Interzonal then played a knockout series of matches using a bracket system.

2. In his quarter-final match of that he beat Taimanov 6-0.

3. In his semi-final match against Larsen he also won 6-0.

4. In his final match against former world champion Tigran Petrosian, he won 6.5-2.5 (+5-1=3).

In the 21 games total that his candidates matches lasted, he won 17 games, lost 1, and drew 3. If we include the Interzonal it is 32 wins, 2 loses, 10 draws. In the combined Interzonal and knockout matches he had a streak of 20 consecutive wins against the world's top players.

And then in the Championship against Spassky he won 12.5-8.5 (+7-3=11) (and one of those loses was a forfeit when he skipped the game over some complaint about the playing conditions).

Nepo's performance in this Candidates was pretty dominating, but doesn't come anywhere near Fischer's level of dominance.

Re:Magnus Carlsen to give up World Championship title by Andrew_nenakhov on Wednesday July 20, 2022 @02:55PM (#32170494)
> And then in the Championship against Spassky he won 12.5-8.5 (+7-3=11)

TBH in that match Fischer started his shenanigans about demanding all sorts of things which most likely unbalanced Spassky - who was known to be somewhat lazy - so with all the political pressure and mind games he likely decided that he doesn't care enough.

The match was actually not that top-level chess as it is presented in chess mythology. Reshevsky [1] said the following things about it:

"True, there were several excellent games, but the match as a whole was disappointing. It was marked by blunders by both players. The blunders committed by Spassky were incredible. In two games, for example, Spassky overlooked a one-move combination. In the first, he was compelled to resign immediately, and, in the other, he threw away all chances for a win. Fischer was also not in his best form. He made errors in a number of games."

... and he is also very critical of how Spassky was prepareding for the match. So a well-prepared Karpov would likely have been able to dethrone Bobby, and I think Fischer knew it, and it played a big part in why he had forfeited the defence.

[1]: http://billwall.phpwebhosting.com/collections/The%20Fischer-...

Re:Magnus Carlsen to give up World Championship title by toolz on Wednesday July 20, 2022 @01:30PM (#32169232)
You make a very strong argument, but if you take fischers score vs the top 8 in the interzonal and double it, fischer would've had 10/14 to nepos 9.5/14, which given it was just 1 game vs the top 8 and given the ELO spread was vastly more spread than current candidates games(easily fischer had 100+ more ELO than the other top 7 opponents) I think it's fair to say you could say nepo was more dominant when compared to the interzonal

granted it becomes more clear that fischer dominated in the quarterfinals forward, but it still is worht pointing out that his opponents weren't nearly as strong as nepo's opponents, relatively speaking

I imagine nepo's score would've been MUCH stronger if he was playing 100-200 ELO points weaker opponents all candidates. Instead nepo had 3 opponents with higher ELO and his weakest opponents ELO was only 19 points lower than his own...

in summary, I think you're correct and I was wrong, but I'm not so sure it's quite so clear-cut when you factor in other variables

Re:Magnus Carlsen to give up World Championship title by jollygoodshow on Thursday July 21, 2022 @05:32AM (#32177324)
I think your argument here actually favours Fischer's dominance. ELO metrics don't matter as were talking about the best players of the respective eras
Re:Magnus Carlsen to give up World Championship title by mda on Wednesday July 20, 2022 @05:31PM (#32172636)
Well Magnus destroyed Nepo in the previous match, I don't see a reason why Nepo would be favorite this time. I think his chess and mental fortitude in general is inferior to Magnus.

Personally I am not interested in this championship match at all.

Re:Magnus Carlsen to give up World Championship title by Andrew_nenakhov on Wednesday July 20, 2022 @08:30PM (#32174299)
Magnus didn't destroy Nepo, he was the first to win a game. At the level of chess in the first 6 games catching up after a loss is difficult, and Ian likely decided not to fight too hard. Also he said he overprepared for the match and was to burned out.

A fresh match with a new score could be very interesting.

Re:Magnus Carlsen to give up World Championship title by mda on Thursday July 21, 2022 @04:10AM (#32176916)
7.5 - 3.5 is pretty much definition of total destruction. Bouncing back from defeat is part of the game (See Carlsen Karjakin match).
Re:Magnus Carlsen to give up World Championship title by Andrew_nenakhov on Thursday July 21, 2022 @07:52AM (#32178254)
After the first five games it was 2.5 - 2.5. Whatever happened to Ian after the first loss does not indicate the level of the play he is capable of, and does not even in the slightest predict what would happen in the rematch.

I understand that Magnus glory hunting fans are everywhere and they love to pretend that once he had someone beaten, he'll repeat the feat with certainty, but have some more sense than that. More than one world champion has won the crown not on his first attempt, including one of the all-time greats, Kasparov.

Re:Magnus Carlsen to give up World Championship title by taneq on Wednesday July 20, 2022 @08:50AM (#32165001)
Does it count as 'breaking' if you're just tired of the game and don't want to play any more? Surely it's OK to stop and do other things eventually?
Re:Magnus Carlsen to give up World Championship title by noirbot on Wednesday July 20, 2022 @11:43AM (#32167386)
I think the difference, and what Carlsen is doing well in this case, is just backing out now instead of trying to defend his title and then getting 5 games in and just going "I hate this and I want to leave. I forfeit".

That would look even worse for him, and be unsatisfying for his opponent and the public. In this case, he realizes he doesn't have the passion for this event any more, so he's doing the best thing for the sport and just letting two people who are still passionate about it compete instead of doing the mental-sports version of playing injured.

Re:Magnus Carlsen to give up World Championship title by Enginerrrd on Wednesday July 20, 2022 @08:55AM (#32165081)
Yes, that's what people mean, almost by definition. In highly competitive events, even a slight break in focus and drive toward winning are often really problematic. Once that wolf-like focus and readiness to fight is broken, a competitor is usually done.
Re:Magnus Carlsen to give up World Championship title by Bootvis on Wednesday July 20, 2022 @10:01AM (#32165923)
I think Magnus just changed focus to being the first 2900. I bet the way the last match went was a bit of a let down for him as well.
Re:Magnus Carlsen to give up World Championship title by cupofpython on Wednesday July 20, 2022 @01:23PM (#32169113)
i have to imagine there are only so many 'tricks'/new lines left for him to use to win games at that level. revealing them on center stage for a single win is wasteful of the resources he has. the WCC games get studied by everyone, not only live with the worlds best engines, but after the fact too. much better to use those resources in tournaments where you can actually play a lot of games with it before people really get a chance to study it in depth.

By resources i mean things like going into a position that gives your opponent an incredibly small advantage but is hard for them to play. It's one of the best ways to win games. it's hard work to find those lines, and he's been doing it for so long at WCC level it's not surprising that he's tapping out against someone he's already beaten. if you use a line in the WCC, it becomes very risky to use it again - because if your opponent studied it and plays it correctly then all you've done is make it even harder for you to win the game.

to reach 2900 he has to win games, not tie

Re:Magnus Carlsen to give up World Championship title by Scarblac on Wednesday July 20, 2022 @01:59PM (#32169719)
> much better to use those resources in tournaments where you can actually play a lot of games with it before people really get a chance to study it in depth.

That doesn't exist anymore, any game Carlsen plays is studied in depth by the world immediately, and especially by his opponents. Same for other top grandmasters.

Re:Magnus Carlsen to give up World Championship title by Andrew_nenakhov on Wednesday July 20, 2022 @03:20PM (#32170836)
> that he's tapping out against someone he's already beaten.

Many observers overplay the importance of one match loss. More than one chess champion title was taken by a challenger who had lost in the previous attempt [1] - and considering there was just a handful of champions, it is a lot.

[1]: Spassky and Kasparov have lost in their first attempts against Petrosyan and Karpov.

Re:Magnus Carlsen to give up World Championship title by cupofpython on Wednesday July 20, 2022 @04:40PM (#32171991)
while true, it is still fair to say Carlsen views nepo as a waste of time. While it would be easy to dismiss this as hubris - i think the bigger point is that he doesnt gain anything from beating him again. It's not that Nepo has no chance of winning.

Magnus specifically mentioned Firouzja as an opponent that he would consider playing the WCC against[1]. So while not the most important factor in his decision, the fact that Nepo won the candidates again and was the last challenger before Magnus made the Firouzja statement seems relevant. Also relevant is that the candidates tournament concluded on July 5th and Magnus released his withdrawal now in the same month.

It seems to me like the challenger being Nepo was the last significant piece of information towards his decision. How specific it is to Nepo or a more general feeling of Nepo being one of many people he doesnt feel any personal benefit from playing against, who knows.

[1] https://chess24.com/en/read/news/magnus-carlsen-unlikely-i-w...

Re:Magnus Carlsen to give up World Championship title by Andrew_nenakhov on Wednesday July 20, 2022 @05:22PM (#32172512)
> Magnus specifically mentioned Firouzja as an opponent that he would consider playing the WCC against[1].

That is not how it works, and not how it is supposed to work. This is hubris and disrespect to all chess players in the world. For more than 100 years champions changed each other in title matches (well, before Kasparov's limitless ego created a decade of turmoil in Chess), with just one exception by Fischer, and now Carlsen 'doesnt feel any personal benefit'. :ThumbDown:

Re:Magnus Carlsen to give up World Championship title by cupofpython on Thursday July 21, 2022 @10:46AM (#32180036)
I think you are misunderstanding. His sentiment seems to be one of "I am burnt out and unmotivated to continue BUT the idea of playing against a young upcoming GM could be motivating enough"

So it isnt the most important reason, but nepo being the challenger didnt offer anything to change his mind like he was hoping the result of the candidates would.

Re:Magnus Carlsen to give up World Championship title by SamoyedFurFluff on Wednesday July 20, 2022 @09:38AM (#32165622)
Even wolves are only focused during occasional hunts. They also play, raise their young, mate, sleep, and care for their sick and injured.
Re:Magnus Carlsen to give up World Championship title by Retric on Wednesday July 20, 2022 @11:53AM (#32167548)
Depends on the game, but people will often come back much stronger after a ~6 months break.

It’s a mix of having a new perspective, dealing with stress, and having time to heal etc. This is one of the reasons most sports have an off season. Even if basketball could easily be played year round, the game would suffer.

Re:Magnus Carlsen to give up World Championship title by slowmovintarget on Wednesday July 20, 2022 @09:40AM (#32165645)
Magnus isn't stopping. He's playing chess everywhere else, at tournaments all over the world. He's pursuing his goal of a 2900 rating (he currently has the world record for his peak rating, though he's dropped a bit from that).

He's just not playing in the FIDE World Championship because he dislikes the process.

Re:Magnus Carlsen to give up World Championship title by piker on Wednesday July 20, 2022 @09:02AM (#32165176)
Not sure there will be much distinction in the history books unless there’s an accompanying rule change, etc. that comes out of it.
Re:Magnus Carlsen to give up World Championship title by dwighttk on Wednesday July 20, 2022 @09:03AM (#32165190)
It is both okay to stop and do other things eventually and it also counts as ‘breaking’
Re:Magnus Carlsen to give up World Championship title by BobbyJo on Wednesday July 20, 2022 @09:15AM (#32165337)
So no one can ever quit without it being considered 'breaking'? If not, what would distinguish between 'breaking' and not 'breaking'?

Surely, if one can quit without it being considered breaking, resigning while on top is how.

Re:Magnus Carlsen to give up World Championship title by Andrew_nenakhov on Wednesday July 20, 2022 @10:25AM (#32166214)
You can honorably lose while giving it all, like most other champions did, except Fischer, who forfeited, and Alekhin, who died while holding the title.
Re:Magnus Carlsen to give up World Championship title by s1artibartfast on Wednesday July 20, 2022 @01:37PM (#32169369)
Yes, quitting is always breaking. It is just that breaking isn't always a bad thing for the player
Re:Magnus Carlsen to give up World Championship title by Accacin on Wednesday July 20, 2022 @09:23AM (#32165440)
For me it's the intent at the time a decision was made.
Re:Magnus Carlsen to give up World Championship title by BobbyJo on Wednesday July 20, 2022 @10:41AM (#32166414)
What intent constitutes 'breaking'?
Re:Magnus Carlsen to give up World Championship title by noirbot on Wednesday July 20, 2022 @08:44PM (#32174401)
It's a temporal question. If you decide in the middle of a competition that you don't care any more and want to quit/forfeit/throw the match, then you broke. You committed to playing an event, presumably because you thought you could win or at least compete, and instead your mental stamina broke and you gave up.

IMO, it's less the intent that you have when you quit - the intent is almost always at that point that you don't want to be there any more doing the thing. The more important part is the intent that led up to the moment where you quit.

In some ways, it's similar to quitting any job. If you just have a bad day or week at work and put in your resignation with no other plan because you just can't stand coming in to work again, you "broke". If you're still working, but interviewing elsewhere, get another job, put in your notice and walk away with something else lined up, it's a bit different.

Re:Magnus Carlsen to give up World Championship title by pverghese on Wednesday July 20, 2022 @10:04AM (#32165972)
So the only way for it not to be considered not 'breaking' is by losing. That makes no sense
Re:Magnus Carlsen to give up World Championship title by dwighttk on Wednesday July 20, 2022 @12:36PM (#32168292)
Um no. Losing is also breaking. Breaking doesn’t have a moral component, it is just losing. The world champion isn’t morally better than everyone, he just wins against challengers.
Re:Magnus Carlsen to give up World Championship title by Andrew_nenakhov on Wednesday July 20, 2022 @10:23AM (#32166174)
Well, there is another way: you can die undefeated, like Alekhin.

Yes, every championship title eventually goes to someone else.

Re:Magnus Carlsen to give up World Championship title by rsync on Thursday July 21, 2022 @10:03AM (#32179527)
Counterpoint: John Elway.
Re:Magnus Carlsen to give up World Championship title by dwighttk on Thursday July 21, 2022 @04:32PM (#32184623)
I don’t understand