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Re:Amazon instructs New York workers “don't sign” union cards by whimsicalism on Saturday July 16, 2022 @11:29AM (#32119072)
High-skilled manufacturing was absolutely outsourced outside of the US.

> Those jobs never paid anywhere close to $30/hour even in the heyday of unionized American manufacturing.

Auto factory jobs (which were outsourced) certainly paid that much and more in inflation adjusted dollars. From a book studying the auto industry describing average wages in Detroit,

> At $11.62 an hour in 1982 wages, Detroit's autoworkers, according to U.S. car companies, were simply too expensive, particularly with the added cost of pensions, health insurance, and union-negotiated work rules.

This is already over $30/hr in 2022 dollars.

Re:Amazon instructs New York workers “don't sign” union cards by dcolkitt on Saturday July 16, 2022 @01:06PM (#32119916)
> Auto factory jobs (which were outsourced)

The decline of Detroit UAW auto industry definitely weren't outsourced. It certainly wasn't GM that opened car factories in Japan and Germany. And it certainly wasn't GM shareholders or executives that benefited from the rise of Japanese and German imports.

This isn't outsourcing, this is simply a case of American carmakers being outcompeted by better products from Japanese and European competitors. (A significant fraction of which were actually assembled in US-based plants owned by those overseas competitors.)

This has nothing to do with "mobility of capital", and unless you shut down trade completely, there's nothing in the world that can protect poorly managed American companies from foreign competition. (Nor should you, while one million UAW workers saw their pay decline, 300 million Americans benefited from a vast improvement in car reliability, affordability and safety.)

Re:Amazon instructs New York workers “don't sign” union cards by whimsicalism on Saturday July 16, 2022 @01:44PM (#32120252)
1. Both factors matter. Most manufacturing for the American automakers also happens outside of the US. That is outsourcing. People still buy American cars.

2. It does have to do with mobility of capital in that many of these "international" competitors are still reliant on American capital and are owned in no small part by American institutional investors.

> This has nothing to do with "mobility of capital", and unless you shut down trade completely, there's nothing in the world that can protect poorly managed American companies from foreign competition. (Nor should you, while one million UAW workers saw their pay decline, 300 million Americans benefited from a vast improvement in car reliability, affordability and safety.)

You are mixing in a moral argument about which is better but it is sort of irrelevant to the veracity of claims like "manufacturing jobs never paid close to $30/hr" and "high-skilled manufacturing was never outsourced."

Re:Amazon instructs New York workers “don't sign” union cards by dcolkitt on Saturday July 16, 2022 @02:55PM (#32120837)
> It does have to do with mobility of capital in that many of these "international" competitors are still reliant on American capital and are owned in no small part by American institutional investors.

The Japanese auto industry, like virtually all of postwar Japan, was almost entirely financed by Japan's persistently high domestic savings rate. You don't have to take my word for it, just look at the long and persistently high current account deficit Japan has with the US. Japan is a huge net exporter of capital, not importer, and it has been for 50 years.

Re:Amazon instructs New York workers “don't sign” union cards by NovemberWhiskey on Saturday July 16, 2022 @12:10PM (#32119415)
The majority of the auto factory jobs that were (e.g. automotive assembly line work) are considered unskilled work; not even semi-skilled; never mind high-skill.
Re:Amazon instructs New York workers “don't sign” union cards by whimsicalism on Saturday July 16, 2022 @12:33PM (#32119605)
two points were made:

1. only low skilled jobs were outsourced

2. low skilled jobs by definition do not pay more than $30/hr.

i am saying at least one of these is wrong, but it really is a question of semantics which one it is.

Re:Amazon instructs New York workers “don't sign” union cards by NovemberWhiskey on Saturday July 16, 2022 @12:47PM (#32119750)
I rather think the point is that outsourcing of those jobs was proof of the assertion that unskilled manufacturing jobs at $30/hr (in 2022 money) plus rich benefits are not a thing that was sustainable.
Re:Amazon instructs New York workers “don't sign” union cards by whimsicalism on Saturday July 16, 2022 @01:38PM (#32120175)
Go ahead and re-read the comment you are defending. I think it has twisted in your memory to something much more reasonable rather than something that can be verifiably fact-checked as false.