News for hackers. Stuff that matters.
Re:The Lightning Network: Turning Bitcoin into Money by olalonde on Wednesday July 13, 2022 @05:44PM (#32089142)
Bitcoin is not a concrete product like Google Search or a smartphone. It's more of an idea, like free speech. The idea being money without a central authority, something that has never really existed before (digitally, at least). No one woke up one day and thought "WOW I need democracy" or "WOW I need free speech". It's abstract and doesn't gratify immediately. The average person does not even have a conception that money could be something entirely different.

Also, Bitcoin threatens the status quo in a massive way. Not only private businesses like banks but also powerful entities like governments and intergovernmental organizations.

Needless to say, I don't expect adoption to be comparable to that of a web search engine.

Re:The Lightning Network: Turning Bitcoin into Money by kkielhofner on Wednesday July 13, 2022 @06:03PM (#32089316)
I use these examples in layers (I have a networking background so my mind more or less thinks in OSI layers).

For actual products bitcoin (and blockchains like Ethereum with EVM) are the fundamental enabling layer. I like to think of them somewhat akin to TCP/IP or even HTTP. Where are the higher layer applications and use cases built on blockchain with instant and obvious utility to the average person walking down the street? This is what I was getting at with the decade plus of development and billions of dollars of investment.

The internet was a fundamental threat to all kinds of institutions - governments with censorship, big media (including state run), and even financial institutions. The internet provided instant untold value for democracy and free speech. Just widespread and instantly available encryption itself was a HUGE problem and threat to governments, law enforcement, militaries, intelligence agencies, etc. Remember the Clipper Chip "debate" and 40 bit encryption export controls? I do.

Yet the obvious value and utility was so clear even governments like China (with the Great Firewall) knew it was of such incredible value to the economy and clamored for by the citizenry they figured out a way to make it work within their system of government. Inside of a decade billions of people were using the internet to further democracy, free speech, and the dissemination of information.

Re:The Lightning Network: Turning Bitcoin into Money by olalonde on Wednesday July 13, 2022 @06:24PM (#32089489)
I agree that the Internet's utility is more obvious than Bitcoin. Bitcoin has little or even negative value to authoritarians. Even in more liberal countries, financial sovereignty and privacy are not generally viewed as important. But to me, this is just more reason to believe that the pace of adoption will be slow and gradual.
Re:The Lightning Network: Turning Bitcoin into Money by imtringued on Thursday July 14, 2022 @05:04AM (#32093697)
Bitcoin has very high value for authoritarians. If you can enforce the currency you can enforce wealth inequality and entrenchment of incumbents.
Re:The Lightning Network: Turning Bitcoin into Money by olalonde on Thursday July 14, 2022 @05:16AM (#32093765)
> Bitcoin has very high value for authoritarians.

Then why have almost all authoritarian governments banned Bitcoin?

> If you can enforce the currency you can enforce wealth inequality and entrenchment of incumbents.

That's the whole point. No one can control Bitcoin which is why it's not appealing to authoritarians. Authoritarians don't like things they can't have authority over.

Re:The Lightning Network: Turning Bitcoin into Money by andirk on Friday July 15, 2022 @11:07PM (#32114909)
Can you elaborate or add citations? Your claim is possible but so far we have seen the opposite with autocrats, authoritarians, groups who benefit from controlling their own currency.
Re:The Lightning Network: Turning Bitcoin into Money by skinnymuch on Thursday July 14, 2022 @11:45AM (#32097559)
Bitcoin is an authoritarian’s wet dream as evidenced by the libertarian philosophies of crypto bros and how Bitcoin and crypto have played out.

Showing authoritarian governments don’t like Bitcoin doesn’t help. Western conservatives and CCP’s social views are very similar. Yet they despise one another. Of course. Authoritarians want to be the ones in control. Why would they like other authoritarians?

Re:The Lightning Network: Turning Bitcoin into Money by olalonde on Thursday July 14, 2022 @05:50PM (#32101867)
First, your sentence makes no sense at all. Libertarianism is practically the opposite of authoritarianism. Libertarians are in favor of a small state with limited power. Authoritarians want the opposite.

Second, "Bitcoin being high value to authoritarians" is another way of saying that authoritarians like Bitcoin. There's a lot of evidence that they don't, and for good reason: they can't control it.

Re:The Lightning Network: Turning Bitcoin into Money by skinnymuch on Thursday July 14, 2022 @07:39PM (#32102679)
Cryptopunk dystopians are libertarian wet dreams as well as crypto bro wet dream.

The opposite of authoritarianism is anarchism. Anarchism and libertarians are not the same thing. One is hard left, the other is hard right. They can’t both be the opposite of authoritarianism.

Libertarians want to be the ones in power. Being in power is something authoritarians enjoy too. I already responded to the authoritarians not liking something does not mean anything about their principles or beliefs.

Re:The Lightning Network: Turning Bitcoin into Money by imtringued on Thursday July 14, 2022 @04:57AM (#32093658)
>The idea being money without a central authority, something that has never really existed before (digitally, at least).

But you still have distributed authorities, the owners of Bitcoin. The idea that one should be controlled by the interests of financial capital is anthitetical to free speech, freedom and self determination.

>Also, Bitcoin threatens the status quo in a massive way. Not only private businesses like banks but also powerful entities like governments and intergovernmental organizations.

It doesn't, it entrenches the status quo. That is quite literally what deflation is, a reward for people who dominated the economy in the past.

Re:The Lightning Network: Turning Bitcoin into Money by olalonde on Thursday July 14, 2022 @05:08AM (#32093720)
> But you still have distributed authorities, the owners of Bitcoin.

What does that mean? That's not how Bitcoin works. There are no distributed authorities. Even miners don't have authority over Bitcoin, other than deciding the order in which transactions get confirmed.

> It doesn't, it entrenches the status quo. That is quite literally what deflation is, a reward for people who dominated the economy in the past.

Even if this was true in a world where Bitcoin is the dominant currency[0], it is not true in the world we live in today. In the world, we live today, governments, corporations, and wealthy individuals are all heavily invested in fiat[1]. I wasn't making the argument that Bitcoin is morally desirable because it disrupts the status quo. I was making the argument that because Bitcoin disrupts the status quo, it will get significant push-back from the powerful entities which have an interest in preserving the status quo.

[0] Apple alone has 200$ billion in fiat, just to give an example.

[1] It's not as if fiat monetary inflation goes directly into the hands of the poor. There's a lot of evidence that the opposite happens and that it actually increases wealth inequality: https://wtfhappenedin1971.com/