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Re:Buddhism has found a new institutional home in the West: ... by nabla9 on Tuesday July 12, 2022 @04:29AM (#32067022)
As someone who has spend long time meditating in Buddhist monasteries, I would say they don't care.

Sutras are just teachings. You may learn from them and value them, but Buddhists are not "people of the book" like Abrahamic religions are. You don't have to parse everything Buddha and ponder it endlessly. Sometimes he just wondered about the future of the discipline. He also changed his mind when others presented arguments, just like in this case.

Buddhism as a religion is considered just a vehicle for some truth that people can discover, not the goal itself. Requiring perfect gym to practice is not for people who really want to train.

Re:Buddhism has found a new institutional home in the West: ... by mudita on Tuesday July 12, 2022 @04:58AM (#32067275)
My own personal experience differed from yours. In a retreat in Burma I observed a lot of traditions, which made it very clear that men had a higher standing than women. When forming a line for going to lunch, the monks were first, then the laymen, then the nuns and then the laywomen; only the monks ate on a raised platform, but not the nuns or laypeople etc.

This was not just old books, which nobody cared about, but pervasive everyday practice.

I very much believe that you had different experience and am happy for it. There’s a lot of Buddhists and different traditions and it’s very difficult to generalise. I myself also practiced in - more western - communities, where there was no noticeable gender imbalance. But I am also sure, that there are Buddhist traditions and communities, which are sexist.

Re:Buddhism has found a new institutional home in the West: ... by nabla9 on Tuesday July 12, 2022 @05:18AM (#32067428)
The reason why you saw what you saw is twofold.

1) You did not see nuns. Formal lineage of nuns died in Theravada lineage hundreds of years ago. Women were wearing white robes right? Those are the robes of novices. You need 5? female nuns to ordain a new nun. Sri Lankan monk, Bhante Henepola Gunaratana (aka Bhante G) asked Tibetan nuns so bootstrap the tradition in Theravada, but it's just starting and there is resistance.

2) Women are considered less than men in Asian cultures (equality of sexes is new in the West too). Religions are not separate from the culture around them.

>But I am also sure, that there are Buddhist traditions and communities, which are sexist.

Yes there are and that is to be expected. (Unless you believe that Buddhism makes people somehow perfect. "After the Ecstasy, the Laundry: How the Heart Grows Wise on the Spiritual Path" by Jack Kornfield is a good book that explains how full of shit Buddhists are no matter how much they train.

Buddhism is not about creating perfect world in this world or in afterlife.

Re:Buddhism has found a new institutional home in the West: ... by mudita on Tuesday July 12, 2022 @10:59AM (#32070956)
Yes, thank you for this explanation. I didn’t know that they were not fully ordained, I learned something from you today: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thilashin (although one could argue whether to call them nuns or not in English. The wikipedia article still calls them “Burmese Theravada Buddhist nun” and they were called nuns in English where I practiced - I’d say their culture’s concept of “nun” does not map perfect to the Western concept, so details get lost in translation, but your explanation is fundamentally correct and very helpful. )

This definitely makes clear again my lack of deeper understanding of their culture and the hubris of me judging their culture after having been in Burma for only a month.

That being said, there definitely were signs of sexism, women did not have the same standing and we should not close our eyes to this part of Buddhism. I don’t mean “and therefore Buddhism is bad”, but “as a Buddhist I think we can and should strive to do better”.

When Buddhism supports and reinforces misogyny, racism or jingoism from the surrounding culture, this is also a failing of Buddhism.

There are many Buddhist teachers (including Jack Kornfield) who absolutely do emphasise more virtuous and emphatic living as a core teaching and result of Buddhist practice. As a simple example, metta meditation is often advertised as actually helping you be more compassionate in “real life”.

Re:Buddhism has found a new institutional home in the West: ... by nabla9 on Tuesday July 12, 2022 @11:51AM (#32071701)
> When Buddhism supports and reinforces misogyny, racism or jingoism from the surrounding culture, this is also a failing of Buddhism.

Buddhism as a religion has constantly and reliably failed throughout history. "This is not true Buddhism" is putting head into the sand. Buddhism that is deeply embedded into culture and tradition carries the baggage of the culture. Often when it transfers to a new culture there is a nice break from the tradition.

>There are many Buddhist teachers (including Jack Kornfield) who absolutely do emphasise more virtuous and emphatic

Yes. The wisdom of Jack Kornfield is taking western secular values adopting them into Buddhism and getting rid of the bad. Buddhism like any religion can be changed to anything you like, good or bad.

Re:Buddhism has found a new institutional home in the West: ... by michaelt on Tuesday July 12, 2022 @06:45AM (#32067989)
> Women are considered less than men in Asian cultures (equality of sexes is new in the West too). Religions are not separate from the culture around them.

Sure - but aren't monks and priests also supposed to be a model, demonstrating what a really dedicated, pious follower of the religion should look like?

Re:Buddhism has found a new institutional home in the West: ... by CiPHPerCoder on Tuesday July 12, 2022 @07:25AM (#32068302)
You're begging the question. Why should monks and priests be a model, rather than a reminder of human nature?
Re:Buddhism has found a new institutional home in the West: ... by michaelt on Tuesday July 12, 2022 @08:02AM (#32068614)
For the same reason I'd expect the pope to be catholic :)

Wouldn't you expect a full-time professional footballer/dancer/poet to be better at football/dance/poetry than the average person on the street?

Re:Buddhism has found a new institutional home in the West: ... by CiPHPerCoder on Tuesday July 12, 2022 @08:52AM (#32069140)
How does one measure "better" when it comes to philosophy or spirituality?

The notion that priests and monks should be holier than the common folk strikes me as very Abrahamic. This forms a hierarchy in the mind.

I'm not a Buddhist, but if I were, I would interrogate (and probably reject) such hierarchies.

Re:Buddhism has found a new institutional home in the West: ... by nabla9 on Tuesday July 12, 2022 @08:53AM (#32069154)
Buddhism is not some progressive movement to change the world.

Ethnic Buddhist traditions are usually among the most conservative forces in the society. They try to be conservative models. In Burma and Sri Lanka many of the politically most active monks favor ethnic cleansing and preach religious intolerance.

Re:Buddhism has found a new institutional home in the West: ... by brodo on Tuesday July 12, 2022 @05:29AM (#32067510)
There is sexism in Buddhism. I stayed at a Buddhist temple in Germany and there where way more rules for the nuns than the monks.

> "It is extremely important to note that world religions [...] are, naturally and inevitably, in large part compendia of rules for managing daily life." - John A. Hall, Ideas and the Social Sciences, 1993

This is why I think it's a good thing that western Buddhism exits. It gets rid of all the bad stuff. And there are really interesting insights in Buddhism, like the concept of non-self or the four noble truths.

Re:Buddhism has found a new institutional home in the West: ... by realreality on Tuesday July 12, 2022 @04:42PM (#32075408)
> It gets rid of all the bad stuff.

That’s laughable. Who decided what “the bad stuff” was? The early adopters were people who rejected western religions but projected western, individualistic culture onto eastern traditions.

Re:Buddhism has found a new institutional home in the West: ... by omarfarooq on Tuesday July 12, 2022 @04:38AM (#32067079)
> but Buddhists are not "people of the book" like Abrahamic religions are.

You mean modern Buddhists aren't. Early Muslims considered the Buddhists they encountered as "people of the book."

Source: https://www.shs-conferences.org/articles/shsconf/pdf/2018/14...

Re:Buddhism has found a new institutional home in the West: ... by coldtea on Tuesday July 12, 2022 @05:22AM (#32067462)
I don't think parent meant that Buddhist's aren't "people of the book" with the muslim meaning of the term.

Given the context, he probably meant they aren't "by the book", not strict about their scripture.

Re:Buddhism has found a new institutional home in the West: ... by denton-scratch on Tuesday July 12, 2022 @07:35AM (#32068376)
Buddhists are not "people of the book" because the Buddha was not a God, and didn't have prophetic access to the teachings of a God. His views on karma and rebirth, for example, were those of the society he sprang from; they were not the result of transcendent insight. He was not some kind of perfect being.

Buddha became more God-like as the centuries passed; some Prajnaparamita and later texts describe him as being the height of seven palm trees, for example. But he's never been considered infallible, like a prophet.

Re:Buddhism has found a new institutional home in the West: ... by nprateem on Tuesday July 12, 2022 @09:08AM (#32069319)
> they were not the result of transcendent insight

That's exactly his selling point, that through deep meditation he had profound insights, regarding impermanance and no-self. But yeah, that was his own realisation, not just some words some god said to him that are supposed to be infallible.

Re:Buddhism has found a new institutional home in the West: ... by selimthegrim on Tuesday July 12, 2022 @07:17AM (#32068253)
Shahrastani, whose book Kitab al milal wan nihal is sitting in front of me right now, had a lot of things to report about Buddhists, and not only that verdict. Have you read him? Furthermore, Biruni on this subject alone is notoriously unreliable, relying on secondhand sources.
Re:Buddhism has found a new institutional home in the West: ... by riskneutral on Tuesday July 12, 2022 @02:26PM (#32073896)
> had a lot of things to report about Buddhists

Would love to know more ...

Re:Buddhism has found a new institutional home in the West: ... by selimthegrim on Tuesday July 12, 2022 @08:46PM (#32077701)
Best to find the Bruce Lawrence translation - in short Muslims had varying opinions of them based on different understandings
Re:Buddhism has found a new institutional home in the West: ... by nabla9 on Tuesday July 12, 2022 @04:56AM (#32067255)
The earliest Buddhist texts were written down centuries after the death of the Buddha. Buddhism started as an oral tradition.
Re:Buddhism has found a new institutional home in the West: ... by thx2099100 on Tuesday July 12, 2022 @05:06AM (#32067343)
so did islam.
Re:Buddhism has found a new institutional home in the West: ... by omarfarooq on Tuesday July 12, 2022 @05:07AM (#32067349)
Correct, Quran means lit. recitation.
Re:Buddhism has found a new institutional home in the West: ... by JetAlone on Tuesday July 12, 2022 @05:55AM (#32067685)
For that matter, the New Testament wasn't written until long after the life of Jesus, the canon wasn't established until long after many oral traditions were, and some of Old Testament canon the status of "deuterocanon/apocrypha" has been controversial.

Religions start with key important figures, events and practices long before they get encoded as text. The only one I can think of off the top of my head that might have gone somewhat in the reverse direction was L. Ron Hubbard writing Dianetics and other books to develop a schema and theory for psychological healing before he officially started Scientology. But I don't know all the details about early Scientology so it's hard to say precisely how much was pre-encoded there. I've heard rumours that Hubbard was involved in Freemasonry before starting Scientology so if it's true, it's likely that some of his experiences in it shaped his writings. I also heard that Paul Twitchell, founder of a lesser-known group called "Eckankar" spent some of his earlier days in Scientology. But I digress.

When you strip practices away from dogma in an attempt to further enrich corporations, it's almost like trying to start over with the practices borrowed from some past heritage, the corporation's leadership as the key figures who give advice or select practice consultants to confer with, and with some milestone of success as the promised "awakening event". It definitely runs the risk of turning the corporation into a personality cult where your boss directly or indirectly tells you how to reach a spiritual objective... Of making them money.

Re:Buddhism has found a new institutional home in the West: ... by dym_sh on Tuesday July 12, 2022 @04:55AM (#32067249)
was it b/c muslims also lived by the book and buddhists just retaliated in kind?