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Re:Show HN: I built an interactive course that helps you lea... by delusional on Saturday July 09, 2022 @09:43AM (#32035004)
This may be a little elitist, but if you're not going to use vim the way it's really made to be used, why even bother? I get that `mouse=a` makes it more familiar, but if you're always going to reach for your mouse, you're never going to really get used to the motions.
Re:Show HN: I built an interactive course that helps you lea... by MatthiasPortzel on Saturday July 09, 2022 @06:51PM (#32040078)
I use Vim as a secondary editor, when I need to quickly edit a file in my terminal or over an SSH session. I'm not interested in it replacing my primary IDE.

If you're going to disable the mouse and the arrow keys and really commit to the home row, more power to you. That is probably the best way to master Vim. But I think a significant number of people looking at Vim tutorials have never used the editor, and I think they deserve to know that there is an easy way to make the editor more comfortable and more familiar.

Someone down-thread used a metaphor to say 'the best way to learn a new language is by immersion' which is something I would agree with. But opening Vim for the first time feels like being dropped into a foreign country where no one speaks your language. Imagine how frustrated you would be to find that the people there actually do speak a language that you know, they're just refusing to understand you because you haven't issued the magic words, "set mouse=a"

Re:Show HN: I built an interactive course that helps you lea... by delusional on Saturday July 09, 2022 @07:52PM (#32040471)
That's certainly valid. I've had friends throughout the years that used vim as you would nano. I don't think vim is any good when you use it like that since the more advanced features just get in your way, but if it works for you then that's cool.

The people who seek out a "learn vim" course are just not that kind of people. In this case you've signed up for a course on how to speak Spanish only to ask the teacher to not speak Spanish.

Re:Show HN: I built an interactive course that helps you lea... by hyperhopper on Sunday July 10, 2022 @12:55AM (#32041977)
You're conflating learning aids with actual usage.

Having mouse support gives you a superset of functionality. Often this can be useful, like if you have on your hand on the mouse using another application.

Saying "why even bother" using vim if you add features just makes no sense.

Re:Show HN: I built an interactive course that helps you lea... by Silica6149 on Saturday July 09, 2022 @09:45AM (#32035028)
I think they were speaking from a total beginner's perspective, and how to get them up to speed as fast as possible.

I felt the same way when first learning vim, since it was completely different from the code editors I'd used in the past, it was strange not being able to use the mouse in the way I was used to.

Re:Show HN: I built an interactive course that helps you lea... by delusional on Saturday July 09, 2022 @09:49AM (#32035061)
I get that, but that strangeness is what pushes you to learn. I find that if I can do something suboptimal, but familiar, it takes way longer for me to change my habits because my subconscious keeps thinking in terms of the familiar.

I find it much more useful to remove the ability to even do the wrong thing, than to simply try and will myself to do the right one.

Re:Show HN: I built an interactive course that helps you lea... by chongli on Saturday July 09, 2022 @01:07PM (#32037121)
I get that, but that strangeness is what pushes you to learn.

Yes, exactly. This is analogous to travelling to another country and hoping to learn the local language by immersion. If you then meet people that speak your language you run the risk of only hanging out with your little expat group and never immersing yourself in the local culture. You can end up spending years there and never learning the language.

Re:Show HN: I built an interactive course that helps you lea... by Silica6149 on Saturday July 09, 2022 @09:54AM (#32035102)
Oh yes, when I was trying to fully learn vim, I had the mentality that I could just practice it for 10 minutes a day and be able to use it while editing code.

The remaining time I would edit code like normal with vscode, so it turned out that I wasn't really able to pick up vim and use it well.

It wasn't until I switched to a different keyboard layout that I decided to move over to vim cold turkey, and was actually able to learn vim and retain it.

Re:Show HN: I built an interactive course that helps you lea... by superdisk on Saturday July 09, 2022 @12:53PM (#32036962)
I agree. When I started at my first internship, one of the developers (and now a close friend) put layers of tape over the arrow keys so I couldn't use them. Took a week of pain and then I never went back.
Re:Show HN: I built an interactive course that helps you lea... by effakcuL on Saturday July 09, 2022 @06:37PM (#32039982)
Tbh, one of the biggest issues with vim for me is, that all my coworkers do not use it. When I have to explain something to them, they are completely oblivious as to how they navigate vim without the mouse. So enabling mouse is one of the most important things for me
Re:Show HN: I built an interactive course that helps you lea... by manx on Saturday July 09, 2022 @09:50AM (#32035068)
Vim was designed on qwerty keyboards. On other layouts (e.g. neo2) hjkl are not in a row.
Re:Show HN: I built an interactive course that helps you lea... by danielvaughn on Saturday July 09, 2022 @10:12AM (#32035262)
That's somewhat comforting to know. I'm in the beginning stages of building out a keyboard-heavy application, and I keep wondering about how to support different keyboard types. I suppose it's not possible to satisfy all customers if even Vim can't do it.
Re:Show HN: I built an interactive course that helps you lea... by maleldil on Saturday July 09, 2022 @01:12PM (#32037160)
Just support QWERTY but allow the user to remap everything. Even among programmers, the share of people that use alt layouts is so small that is not worth your time.
Re:Show HN: I built an interactive course that helps you lea... by Lio on Sunday July 10, 2022 @03:35AM (#32042623)
I’m a Colemak layout user. I don’t bother remapping anything for Vim because I want it to be consistent with other apps with vi keys.

I have done that briefly years ago but I find it a dead end.

After a while you just get used to the cursor keys being in a different place and if you’re touch typing it doesn’t mater much.

Also what you loose to cursor key placement you gain back on other navigation.

So in short just support qwerty and it’ll be fine.

Re:Show HN: I built an interactive course that helps you lea... by opan on Sunday July 10, 2022 @12:06AM (#32041752)
Very minor issue, speaking as someone who switched to dvorak and then workman while continuing to use vim daily. No keys remapped. It's just not even an issue. Those letters still make those movements. They're in different spots, but I already had to get used to the new spots for writing words in the first place. Doesn't even feel slower.

IIRC dvorak even happens to split the vertical and horizontal movements between hands but while keeping them near each other, almost like RC car controls. Workman is comparatively a bit crazier with its placement, but it still doesn't bother me.

Re:Show HN: I built an interactive course that helps you lea... by spc476 on Saturday July 09, 2022 @05:34PM (#32039518)
Specifically, it was designed on the ADM3A keyboard, which had the arrows printed on the H, J, K and L keys. Also of note is the key in the upper right, which is labeled with "HOME", ~ and ^ (which explains why shells use "~/" to represent the users home directory).

And while I'm diving into history here, vi (which stands for "visual") was a modification of "ex" to use the newfangled "video terminal" instead of the battle tested teletype machine.